Outbreak of fire (28 June 2018 Pt 2 of 2)

Full transcript

00:06:34 mr. bean thinking this was two minutes

00:06:43 about to be can I just go back to one or two things we were talking about together before the lunch break yes and the first is the counter on

00:06:54 yes and the first is the counter on which you say firefighter Brown was kneeling and you are supporting him by holding onto his be a kid his straps and he was aiming the jet out of the window

00:07:06 he was aiming the jet out of the window can you describe that counter for us in terms of its its length and width yeah

00:07:16 it seemed to be a work top standard kitchen worktop which was essentially in front of the in front of the window front how high was it I mean how did it

00:07:29 front how high was it I mean how did it let's start with half I think firefighter Brown government I think it was below the window and when when I

00:07:40 was below the window and when when I when you just said aiming the jet out of the window he was on his knees he was crouched down he was he was out the window I was holding on to him and the

00:07:51 window I was holding on to him and the jet was aimed up you know it's trying to try and hit the fire if I remember Dan had to kind of bend down to get to here

00:08:03 had to kind of bend down to get to here so I'm you know I'm at your nose you know not really know but not really tall and how wide was it coming out from the window do you think and use the table in

00:08:15 window do you think and use the table in front of you to to make a comparison if you like I see say slightly again what I would imagine is a standard size I don't

00:08:26 would imagine is a standard size I don't know but it was big enough to climb one two and it supported his way right

00:08:35 and secondly you we didn't we discussed before lunch and you told us that there was a discussion between the be a team

00:08:47 was a discussion between the be a team that was arriving be 18 to and the and the be 80 and that was departing that was you how easy was it to have a conversation with the arriving ii be 18

00:08:58 conversation with the arriving ii be 18 given that you were wearing be a math similar to when you asked about communicating with the handheld radio you have to compose yourself you have to speak clearly because when you breathe

00:09:10 speak clearly because when you breathe it makes a noise and that that kind of thats an obstruction you know it's an obstacle you have to overcome and you have to raise your voice and just try basically really can't but it is muffled

00:09:23 now we talked also before the lunch break about communications that you've had from within flat 16 while on your berry radio and want to think on your

00:09:35 berry radio and want to think on your handheld does that just just remind me if that's correct we discussed it so you remember making two messages sending two messages by radio yes at least at least

00:09:48 messages by radio yes at least at least two at least so taking the berry radio but to start with that communicates you with the bridgehead doesn't it do you remember getting a confirmation back from the bridgehead about what you were

00:09:59 from the bridgehead about what you were telling them i could hear but i couldn't make it out because I could hear there was something coming back but it was slightly pushed back to the but and I was I was hitting my helmet and trying

00:10:11 was I was hitting my helmet and trying to get my glove up inside to manipulate it but it wasn't working so I I assumed they'd got the information they were coming back to me because it was it

00:10:23 coming back to me because it was it sounded like a you know the length made sense that they were because that's a common procedure you communicate something too easy oh they will repeat back to you but I couldn't make it out

00:10:36 back to you but I couldn't make it out because it was dislodged so see if I've got this you could hear something something yeah but not what it was not right and you is this right just to

00:10:49 right and you is this right just to summarize your evidence before the launch bringing in he also made a second radio comment message with using your handheld that's correct yeah and again was that just to be clear was that with

00:11:01 was that just to be clear was that with the bridgehead or was that done to as I said I'm pretty sure I went through to channel one at that stage because initially my handheld radio wasn't on

00:11:12 initially my handheld radio wasn't on because they're not intrinsically safe so you wouldn't go into a potentially explosive atmosphere with that on so when I couldn't get the Buried communications I was in the compartment well I know it's now not an explosive

00:11:23 well I know it's now not an explosive atmosphere because we've dealt with it mmm and then that's when I turn my radio on and I'm pretty sure I went on channel one and then as I said in my statement eventually came back to us that they were aware it was going on the outside

00:11:35 were aware it was going on the outside and and who were you communicating with at that point was a bridgehead imaginary would be Chris or Mike I would have gone

00:11:49 would be Chris or Mike I would have gone through - to an officer okay outside do you remember whether you did in fact have radio contact with Mike Darden that when you were inside note on channel one

00:12:00 when you were inside note on channel one I can confirm that I've got priority message out and I received information about that they got that message that was aware it's like I can't confirm who that was because I simply don't remember

00:12:11 that was because I simply don't remember thinking right could you please be shown the operational response report which is a tab eight of the documents bundle just

00:12:23 a tab eight of the documents bundle just want to see if I can clarify a time with you

00:12:30 and if you could you could go please to page 30 mister documents director thank you and there we see Oh one-twenty one-fifteen and just so you know mr.

00:12:44 one-fifteen and just so you know mr. bass beat and tell you what this is the this document which I don't expect you to have seen before is a London Fire Brigade operational response report for the first hour of the fire which has been put together through as a result of

00:12:56 been put together through as a result of investigation of a lot of information the reason the time there is in italics is if it is because it is what they call a soft time it hasn't been confirmed I just want to ask you says a one-twenty one-fifteen around

00:13:10 says a one-twenty one-fifteen around this time be 18 - into the kitchen and joined be 18 1 that's you and mr. brown be 18 1 confirm it be 18 - that the fire in the kitchen is out and then it says

00:13:21 in the kitchen is out and then it says be 18 1 confirm the fire is extinguished in flat 16 and they send a message to be a e Co confirming the fire is out is

00:13:34 a e Co confirming the fire is out is that to the best of your recollection the first message you send about the fire being out or is it the second or subsequent I don't know I can't confirm

00:13:45 subsequent I don't know I can't confirm that and did you give BAE Co any other information during that message message

00:14:00 information during that message message our broadcast out was that before was out in flat 16 but it was jumping or something along them lines it was going on the outside so my objective was to tell them that we had done our job in

00:14:12 tell them that we had done our job in the flat you know it's not over we've got this situation going on but I would that be impossible for me to know the time when that was right and just say yeah

00:14:23 yeah I've asked you this before one of us want to be absolutely crystal-clear that message yeah that it's jumping that you sent did you get a confirmation back again been received and understood again

00:14:34 again been received and understood again I've got something back but it it wasn't yay I was I couldn't I can make it out so that's why then went to my handheld radio did you get a confirmation back at that message on your handheld rate yes

00:14:46 that message on your handheld rate yes you did yes right after you left flat sixteen mister battery where did you go

00:14:58 sixteen mister battery where did you go next so went back to the bridgehead

00:15:03 where I booked out and I met with watch manager Brian O'Keefe who's got 33 Kensington and we did our debrief so I

00:15:16 Kensington and we did our debrief so I explained to him that the bar and the flat was up and it was going on the outside his brief to me was to immediately go downstairs carry out what

00:15:27 immediately go downstairs carry out what we call a fire ground ATF so that's the process of putting a new cylinder onto our they set testing it which is a an a test is a a standard test you do when

00:15:39 test is a a standard test you do when you take over that piece of equipment to check it is indeed operational and safe and to get straight back up there so that was my brief and I was very clearly communicated to me from Brian O'Keefe

00:15:52 communicated to me from Brian O'Keefe and at that time there was a you know stood a massive sense of urgency that you know we need to get downstairs and get get straight back up right I just want to unpack that a little bit more because you've given us a lot of

00:16:03 more because you've given us a lot of information there which is very helpful I just want to focus on your just your debrief with with watch manager O'Keefe how soon after tallying in was that

00:16:16 how soon after tallying in was that conversation booking out hooking out so receiving my tally back yes tally you probably probably have in

00:16:29 tally you probably probably have in seconds

00:16:30 seconds right

00:16:31 right and you did a debrief with him can you remember as much as you can of what you told him as I've just said the foreign

00:16:42 told him as I've just said the foreign the flat is out it's going on the outside and at that stage again from what I recall of that conversation it is very fast paced and it's just off I come out of a very hot where I remember him

00:16:53 out of a very hot where I remember him vividly saying the plan is to go downstairs we need all the BA we have back up here we you know it's a it's very clear of what I needed to go and do next

00:17:03 next did you tell him that you had seen balls of flame on the outside falling down no I told him it was going on the outside and that was jumping up the building right now do you was your impression at

00:17:14 right now do you was your impression at the time that he already knew that or was that your impression that you were telling him something that he didn't know

00:17:26 my impression was that he was probably conscious of it because I imagine he would have had contact of outside the building because I remember him saying comet it's difficult cuz I'm trying to

00:17:38 comet it's difficult cuz I'm trying to recall a very fragmented memory but at the time I would expect that you know what's happening outside it's been communicating so I've been then I agree

00:17:49 communicating so I've been then I agree it's a very dynamic incident for example I didn't know what was going on on the outside but um all I remember is I told it I told him and he told me the plan and plan was agreed and on that that's

00:18:01 and plan was agreed and on that that's what we were going to do

00:18:10 in your statement apart page eight if you could please go to that you cover your debrief on both in the third

00:18:21 your debrief on both in the third paragraph on page eight when you say we did our debrief with watch manager at key and in the second line there after collect our tallies you say he seemed

00:18:33 collect our tallies you say he seemed quite alarmed I told us that the plan was for us to carry out fire ground a test and get straight back up the tower when you say he seemed quite alarmed was

00:18:45 when you say he seemed quite alarmed was that that he was it but he was already in a state of alarm or was he alarmed by what you told him again I'm trying to

00:18:57 what you told him again I'm trying to remember back to the moment [Music]

00:19:04 from wino fine is a very very experienced officer and on receiving that information he was very clear and had a very clear sense of urgency okay

00:19:16 had a very clear sense of urgency okay right well this is you need to get your be a set a tested which is quite unusual okay so normally after a hot where as we call it and as per procedure you should

00:19:27 call it and as per procedure you should have time to rest and recuperate before going for another where to go straight from coming out of compartments or what you have to get your be a set tested and

00:19:39 you have to get your be a set tested and get straight back up that's quiet that sense of urgency suggests to me that you know we need to get back up here because we could you know this reward I imagine there's resources coming on but the

00:19:51 there's resources coming on but the job's not finished I understand I'm sorry to in a sense repeat the question push the point just doesn't just a little bit more but well I'm trying to get a feel for is whether his state of

00:20:02 get a feel for is whether his state of alarm was created by something you told him or whether he was already alarmed do you remember okay thank you

00:20:15 at that moment during your debrief with watch manager O'Keefe what were the conditions of the bridgehead like clear

00:20:29 conditions of the bridgehead like clear again

00:20:30 again nothing nothing there that would allow me or leave you know it was just again it was instead of that point pretty normal

00:20:38 normal what about the stairs coming down from floor fall to the brothers apart from that how busy it was with personnel coming onto the job again clear conditions were clear and at that point

00:20:49 conditions were clear and at that point I didn't have my breathing apparatus on so I could I could smell yeah and it wasn't wasn't smoking right and and what about people in the stair you've got the BA people coming in but

00:21:02 you've got the BA people coming in but what about residents coming coming down I don't actually recall vividly seeing it

00:21:11 it anybody offices are very busy scene but what I was looking at focusing on was what was coming on to the job and preparing myself to go and conduct my

00:21:23 preparing myself to go and conduct my brief carry out the carry out the a test

00:21:30 did watch manager O'Keefe tell you anything about the conditions higher up the building not know but I don't

00:21:41 the building not know but I don't remember okay did anybody else tell you about the conditions higher up the building at that time no I remember going down the stairs and now you say

00:21:58 going down the stairs and now you say the foot of page eight of your statement in the last paragraph when I got outside I walked over to watch manager doubt into updating

00:22:10 where were you physically when you did that I come out the main entrance I turn left facing facing east and I walk

00:22:24 left facing facing east and I walk towards Michael he was outside and

00:22:43 can I can I just ask you what you said to him well I went over to him to to let me know that weird we'd done our job

00:22:54 me know that weird we'd done our job we're gonna put the flat so I basically he's instant commander so it follow suit that you'd go and have your debrief with instant commander and I looked up at the

00:23:06 instant commander and I looked up at the side of the tower and I'll never get over that shock just take it just take a

00:23:17 over that shock just take it just take a breather Sarah you need to bring just over a minute there's a few seconds pause we could we could easily stop there few minutes if you'd like to you I

00:23:31 think we should break the channel just a few minutes all right just well we'll break in five minutes twenty twenty-five fast

00:23:59 you

00:31:24 you okay to go on okay mr. battle but I've only got a couple of questions on this which I think I do have to ask you

00:31:37 this which I think I do have to ask you when you came out for did your debrief or update with Mike Darden as you say in your statement can you tell us what discussion you had with him

00:31:49 discussion you had with him okay so came out so what I saw Mike

00:32:00 okay so came out so what I saw Mike pointed up you know what we were looking at and I was trying to take it in and I

00:32:13 at and I was trying to take it in and I looked directly at him and I grabbed his arms like this and he grabbed my arms I said Mike what have you made it and he said I've made it 25 I thought

00:32:25 and he said I've made it 25 I thought that was a good call so when I say 25 here made pumps 25

00:32:37 then I look to him I said okay what do you need from me and he said pointed to the bollards which were on kind of

00:32:51 the bollards which were on kind of positioned on the corner of the east and the South Face that were locked up and he said get those bollards and get those

00:33:03 he said get those bollards and get those cars out of the way to get the Toa I said okay I'm gonna do that I still have my BA set on at this stage

00:33:12 so that that's what we discussed did you have the ball of keys with you I had my again personal set of keys which I purchased when I joined the fire

00:33:24 which I purchased when I joined the fire brigade explains her local locksmiths and bought the they called FB Keys Fire Brigade keys and I bought a set of those and I had I always keep those in my in

00:33:36 and I had I always keep those in my in my in my pocket that works well because I didn't have to go looking for a first set the memory serves it was an FB 14

00:33:48 set the memory serves it was an FB 14 which is quite standard padlock was holding that bollard in place so that's I undid it I launched it right out the way and because I looked at the cars and

00:33:59 way and because I looked at the cars and there was no way I considered could we could we flip the cars over in a fashion

00:34:10 could we flip the cars over in a fashion to make more space and I can't mend much of it now but I remember my assessment of time was there is nowhere I can get them cause to go and again the flipping

00:34:22 them cause to go and again the flipping of the cars would have been facilitated by us a few of us getting and picking them up and turning them over to try and make room but I remember thinking there's not or even breaking a window releasing the handbrake and pushing it

00:34:33 releasing the handbrake and pushing it out of the way but I thought well there's nothing I can do with those cars so it's gonna have to be the fallout so that's what I did then I remember at one stage I just I looked up and that the TL

00:34:45 stage I just I looked up and that the TL was coming to water it was in front of me it was coming right me so we've made enough space to get tearin' the turntable ladder yeah

00:35:01 can I just go back to your conversation with Mike Davenant at that time could you see people coming out of the building at that time I was

00:35:14 out of the building at that time I was so task focused on what I was doing now let me just try to describe the scene it was chaos but organized chaos so when I

00:35:26 was chaos but organized chaos so when I say organized we were trying to you know we were getting a Tyrian we were doing the best we could on the ground but the noise I could never describe that noise there are no worse to describe the noise

00:35:38 there are no worse to describe the noise of the the debris coming down the pump reven everything going on it was yeah it was it was hell but I don't I don't

00:35:53 was it was hell but I don't I don't remember vividly having memories of seeing individuals because at that time I was getting on with my brief thank you can I just ask you about hydrants if you

00:36:07 can I just ask you about hydrants if you go to page nine of your statement and this is a little bit further on I think in in in time you

00:36:19 talking about the jet on the outside of the building and he said the very bottom of the page I then heard you see that there I'd then heard from other crews that the hydrant on the junction of

00:36:31 that the hydrant on the junction of Bowmore Road this is at the very bottom of the page and over the top of the next page and grenfell raid was defective

00:36:45 page and grenfell raid was defective just so you could see on the screen mr. passively those two sentences there's two parts of that sentence together I then heard from other crews that the hydrant on the on the junction

00:36:56 that the hydrant on the on the junction of Bommel road and Grenfell Road was defective I heard this more than once from different people my question having shiny - is do you remember who

00:37:09 having shiny - is do you remember who you heard that from firefighters did he be specific about names to know that stations they came from know roughly what time of the night roughly did you hear that well to put

00:37:21 roughly did you hear that well to put this into context that hydron we were looking for for those who have the same read back and have a look but it was after I'd Danny and I had made an attack

00:37:33 after I'd Danny and I had made an attack with an individual firefighting Jeff it was after I met with Steve Collins to try and get the monitor to work so I imagine it was a good few you know

00:37:46 imagine it was a good few you know there's a few minutes after I you know got the bollards out the way and stuff like that right but I can tell you the time I don't know and how soon do you

00:37:57 time I don't know and how soon do you think after the arrival of the turntable ladder

00:38:04 but again I don't know what time the turntable ladder got on scene the first time I saw up is when I was moving the bollards out of the way but after performing that task I'd say no well I

00:38:20 performing that task I'd say no well I can confirm it was after I don't know their time I'm sorry alright okay now

00:38:28 did you have any of your own experiences about defective hydrants did you have problems with hydrants on the night yeah in my in my career they're all the night

00:38:40 in my in my career they're all the night uh-oh on the night can you perhaps off sound at different ways yes cuz principle yeah so on the night of the ground field terrified did you yourself personally experienced any any problems with the fire hydrants no clues on that

00:38:53 with the fire hydrants no clues on that night I didn't ship a hydrant you didn't ship so I I didn't a hydrant gear our method of plugging into that that main I'd I didn't do that on a night so no is

00:39:05 I'd I didn't do that on a night so no is the answer is the what you use the word shipping is that a five great time so I know get ice and did you ever learn what the problem with the hydrant that you'd

00:39:16 the problem with the hydrant that you'd heard about was no but they did get it to work as my statement says yeah I don't know what the holdup was no I want

00:39:27 don't know what the holdup was no I want to ask you if you turn on in your statement at page 10 about fire survival guidance calls in the system of communication yep and pick this up at

00:39:45 communication yep and pick this up at the very bottom of that page you referred to doing a fire ground test

00:39:56 as sorry I've just noticed something I should have I should ask you perhaps I should not just a little higher up that page forgive me mr. pattabhi if you go up and look at the second last paragraph where you say I sat for a few minutes

00:40:08 where you say I sat for a few minutes recuperating yes and then you say the shot of so shocked at the way the fire was escalating I remember looking over to the base of the tower I'm seeing much manager Darden he was still wearing the

00:40:20 manager Darden he was still wearing the incident commander Tabard I remember thinking why was he still in charge can I just ask you what what prompted that thought she remember well when I came downstairs from as we've

00:40:34 when I came downstairs from as we've discussed I spoke with my cornea to confirm that it was now a 25 pump fire

00:40:44 and also remember I'd done tasks on the fire ground I'd completed my a test and then I tried to get back up there and I was ordered by watch manager Brown from

00:40:58 was ordered by watch manager Brown from Battersea and I've mentioned in my statement that he had a large number of whereas under his command and he ordered me to go and sit down so what prompted

00:41:10 me to go and sit down so what prompted that thought was there are lots of resources here now a watch manager will generally be in charge up to a four station manager from a six group manager

00:41:24 station manager from a six group manager from an eight and a ten and above as I've said in my statement would be a much higher level rank so that that's what prompted that thought yeah thank you so coming back to where I wanted to

00:41:37 you so coming back to where I wanted to direct you which is the last paragraph on page 10 you say um after staying there for what felt like a very short time and that's outside the building you

00:41:50 time and that's outside the building you say watch manager came running over asking for volunteers to help with FSG in

00:41:56 in most relevant manager was Paul Sadler age 22 Lambeth yeah you say he went along with him and burned firefighter Broderick from g36 Hammersmith and then

00:42:09 Broderick from g36 Hammersmith and then he's then you had you say watch manager Sadler explained that we were receiving a high number of FSG calls these were coming through cu7 you see that yes do

00:42:24 coming through cu7 you see that yes do you remember when cu7 arrived no okay do you remember any fast survival guidance calls have come to the incident ground

00:42:35 calls have come to the incident ground through the initial command pump not that I was aware of right and then you go on to say he explained I think that's sadly explained that we needed to record

00:42:47 sadly explained that we needed to record and deliver this information to the bridgehead now can you just explain to us because you go on in your statement to do saver can you summarize for us the system that then operated which you were

00:43:01 system that then operated which you were involved with just to confirm so not the not to describe the FSG policy but to discuss the system that we were running with on on the night okay exactly that

00:43:14 with on on the night okay exactly that so he explained we'd record and deliver this information it's at bridgehead it's my same it says or my understanding of the brief at that time was cu7

00:43:27 the brief at that time was cu7 command unit were probably quite overwhelmed on that was my thing in hand and we were going to support their efforts and do exactly what we said

00:43:38 efforts and do exactly what we said record that information and get it to where it needs to go did you speak to anyone on cu7 no how does the information go from cu7 well

00:43:52 does the information go from cu7 well let that start with the control room just just run me through what was happening on at the time yeah so far survival guidance calls are in progress between the caller and the control room

00:44:04 between the caller and the control room yes and then the control room sends a message

00:44:07 message to see you seven yeah is that right yep they're all that that would that would be the the standard procedure would be to that risk critical information would

00:44:19 to that risk critical information would go to the command unit designated to deal with fire Survival Guide in its course and we just want the night I was I believe was cu7 because that's where we were told we were getting that information right and did you know what

00:44:32 information right and did you know what was happening inside cu7 no okay so how does the fire survival guidance call information and come out of cu7 onwards

00:44:44 information and come out of cu7 onwards and at a time I said we were set up on the bonnet of a car I've fought in information board and I can only guess

00:44:55 information board and I can only guess that that was being communicated to Paul satella from cu7 by means of a handheld radio because we went on to channel free to do the FSU stuff so just you enter

00:45:09 to do the FSU stuff so just you enter onto channel 3 to do the FSG stuff say so does that mean that you were communicating with cu7 from the place

00:45:21 communicating with cu7 from the place where you were with the forward information port by route by radio on channel 3 well at that time I might just just come over and join them so I won't be able to say that for sure but um I

00:45:32 be able to say that for sure but um I certainly how we progressed throughout the incident okay and where was the forward information board physically located

00:45:38 located we were on the bonnet of a car where's the car okay so can i grab my map absolute another map you'll think we pull the map up on the screen I'll tell you exactly that's EJB - it should be in

00:45:51 you exactly that's EJB - it should be in tap to be

00:45:57 yes the possible zoomin

00:46:03 zoom in again

00:46:08 yes you see the corner bend of the road which is not obscured by the grenfell walk or the Lancaster West estate yeah it was kind of it was parked on the same side of the road that was

00:46:20 on the same side of the road that was next to the grass area on that bend so somewhere over somewhere on Granville Road on the same side as so yeah on the same sort of road that had that where

00:46:31 same sort of road that had that where the grass park was it was parked up there okay yeah that's the I meant so the best description I wasn't given where it was okay if the Trotter is can move the cursor around perhaps and go to

00:46:45 move the cursor around perhaps and go to the corner of the walkway to the to the east side there's a go to the right keep going keep going keep going keep going

00:46:56 going keep going keep going keep going keep going drop down yet I mean if that's Grenfell Road yes somewhere around there is parts so there's a line of cars parked up and it was just it was just one of those cars right and where

00:47:09 just one of those cars right and where was c7 c7 was on grenfell Road parked up on the same side as I think it's Behrend and walks of one of the finger blocks so

00:47:21 and walks of one of the finger blocks so a little further to the south under way you've written garage area this is if you zoom out again yeah just just kind of them where I've written garage area that block there yeah which is Behrend

00:47:33 that block there yeah which is Behrend and walk right it was just opposite yeah it's just just next to the finger blocks right on grandpa wrote on the left or the right side on the left side it's on the same so you had the pavement here

00:47:46 the same so you had the pavement here you had no it could have been because note was on the opposite side but it was on grandpa Road and the crew cab was

00:47:57 on grandpa Road and the crew cab was facing towards like down graph or towards a tower right so it's parked on them thank you to the wrong side of the road yeah yeah okay and how far from the

00:48:09 road yeah yeah okay and how far from the bonnet of the car that you were happy you were working on the forward information border well as you can see on the screen not not a great distance but Curtis asked

00:48:25 not a great distance but Curtis asked you a question would it be normal to have that they command unit that distance from a high-rise building a fire in it

00:48:37 fire in it well as we discussed area earlier and the access and egress to Graham for tower was not great a command unit will generally Park slightly further back

00:48:48 generally Park slightly further back from the scene of ops so that basically tiel's our appliances can get that little bit closer so to answer your question yes if it would follow suit

00:49:00 question yes if it would follow suit that it wouldn't pop right at the base of the tower okay so you you join is this right you join watch manager Sadler at the at the car yeah he's got the

00:49:12 at the at the car yeah he's got the forward information board yeah and then what do you start doing well the next key thing I remember is he detailed me as per my contemporaneous notes and my

00:49:25 as per my contemporaneous notes and my statement to report to the bridgehead report to watch manager Luiza - Silvo golf 84 Chelsea and to record and make a

00:49:37 golf 84 Chelsea and to record and make a note of all the information they had at the bridge and to bring that back

00:49:52 and you bring that back to where the fault information board or loser so watch manager Sadler right what would he do with it which might I just refer to

00:50:03 do with it which might I just refer to my notes just serve in schools just timeline-wise I'm just trying to because we've jumped about a bit

00:50:22 yes Oh got to Luiza get the UM or the bridge rather get the information come back and cross reference it to make sure that we you know see if there were any

00:50:33 you know see if there were any differences if we needed to add more information and just check that that you know the world were both on they're both seeing the same thing what were you

00:50:44 seeing the same thing what were you taking to Louisa at the bridgehead I didn't take anything to Louisa I went up to her or I don't remember taking anything to her went up to her and I saw her information board

00:50:56 to her and I saw her information board if memory serves and as you can see him one of my exhibits a notebook yes I'm going to ask you about that CJ b3 yeah so well let me go straight to

00:51:10 CJ b3 yeah so well let me go straight to that then you look at that and it looks like a piece of paper torn from an ordinary pad yeah so we carried

00:51:21 ordinary pad yeah so we carried notebooks on the fire ground and where did you fill where did you fill in there's this page as a blank piece of paper to start with sorry what's the

00:51:33 paper to start with sorry what's the question well when you wrote it well let me just ask you this way did you write down this list I wrote this is my writing and I wrote this list where were you when you wrote this list I was at

00:51:44 you when you wrote this list I was at the bridgehead which I think was still on the second floor and I was kneeling down next to watch manager - Silvo looking at the information that they had

00:51:55 looking at the information that they had okay so you are copying this from something yes from that I believe is a forward information board at the bridgehead at the bridgehead yep right and just helping me with what it

00:52:08 and just helping me with what it contains you've got a flat number of people and then the floor is that right okay so on the first one I believe that

00:52:20 okay so on the first one I believe that sort of flat one yeah that one one three eight eight people 14th floor mr. Beswick can you just wait a moment mr.

00:52:31 Beswick can you just wait a moment mr. Tron director it's CJ b3 we'd be neat added on the Green said that everybody can see at cjb 3 and it's met triple 0 1 5 7 31

00:53:01 so yes we could just get over this again this is your writing you say this represents information that you copied down onto a blank piece of paper in your notebook yes rich head well it was

00:53:13 notebook yes rich head well it was manned by Bosch manager - silver and you got the flat and it looks like 1-1 3-8 people 14 err 14th floor good it has done just confirm that this information

00:53:26 done just confirm that this information comes from I think you said the bridgehead but what is it on the bridgehead that you saw from which you copied this it was a forward information board with the list of the information that I have on here on that board so

00:53:39 that I have on here on that board so it's my objective was to simply take a note of what they had go back to watch manager Sadler and show him this to make

00:53:50 manager Sadler and show him this to make sure that what we had was indeed corresponding with what they had right okay so starting with what's at the bridgehead forward information board can you just describe it for us yes a

00:54:03 can you just describe it for us yes a forward information board is if you imagine just this big critical piece of plastic with some posters on it and it's

00:54:14 plastic with some posters on it and it's used for you can sketch out an incident but it's also got a casualty information post on it which you can use or utilize

00:54:26 post on it which you can use or utilize if you'd like to for FSG to do to do the FSG recording on it and do you know who had written then the FSG information the

00:54:37 had written then the FSG information the you saw on the forward information board onto it no do you know where the information had come from that had been written onto it no did you ask anybody at the bridgehead

00:54:48 no did you ask anybody at the bridgehead where they were getting that FSG information from the you are copying down no so then you copy it down as we see here we could see ticks when did you

00:54:59 see here we could see ticks when did you a takes your ticks down my tips when did you add the ticks okay so copied down the flap and then on the other side the floor

00:55:12 the other side the floor and I place the tick against the ones which she she informed me she had directed a crew to okay

00:55:31 I'll come back to that in a moment so you then what what happened next with this piece of paper did you leave the bridgehead I then returned to watch

00:55:42 bridgehead I then returned to watch manager Sadler about the car I think we were still at the car at this point I can't be in Somalia I should ask a different I don't suggest the answers

00:55:53 different I don't suggest the answers was the question should be where where was where was 'watch manager sadly when he went back to him I think I'm again I'm going on very broken fragmented piece of memory but

00:56:06 broken fragmented piece of memory but pretty sure at the car because as I've gone on to explain we then we did move to a more sheltered area lay later on

00:56:18 to a more sheltered area lay later on but I can't confirm I went back to Paul Sadler you were about to call Sadler and what happened to this piece of paper at that point we've got it out and and we

00:56:29 that point we've got it out and and we started doing exactly that cross-referencing cross-referencing to what the information he held and Walt did he have well he had information on a foreign information board flat numbers

00:56:42 foreign information board flat numbers and floors are don't remember entirely that that was that's the role we were we were performing and do you know where the information on that Ford information

00:56:54 the information on that Ford information board came from again I would just presume

00:57:00 presume Charlie uniform 7 c 7c you seven years and you know who had written that FSG information onto that forward information board was it was it Sadler

00:57:14 information board was it was it Sadler or was it somebody else I don't know is there any reason why you had that fall information board on the bonnet of a car as opposed to being in

00:57:27 bonnet of a car as opposed to being in all right outside cu7 could you please repeat the question yes is there any reason why watch manage of Sadler was

00:57:38 reason why watch manage of Sadler was running a full information board on the bonnet of a car and not at or just outside cu7 I don't know the answer to that I don't know would that be and then

00:57:54 that I don't know would that be and then and then was a lot was normal on that night that would that be a normal procedure to have cu7 forward information border bridge ahead at the time I was so toss focused on why I was

00:58:07 time I was so toss focused on why I was doing and trying to help that I didn't really question it and I have to say I've never I've never had to deal with

00:58:18 I've never I've never had to deal with fire survival guidance information before in my career so that was what I was first time I'd ever done it understand and when you were back to

00:58:29 understand and when you were back to watch Manager Sadler at his Ford information board and gave him this information what did you at what what did he do with it okay so again I'm

00:58:45 did he do with it okay so again I'm we've jumped forward a bit so I'm just trying to memorize it so got back to Paul Sadler cross-reference the information and then as I've gone say my

00:58:56 information and then as I've gone say my statement a decision was made that we needed to move to a more sheltered area that was quiet and then decision was made to we needed to start recording that information individually on the

00:59:09 that information individually on the correct forms the control information pad and then that point

00:59:17 any imaginary quizzically it didn't stop coming it just the information kept coming so we've got those and then we were running those into the bridgehead okay let me just there's a lot in what

00:59:30 okay let me just there's a lot in what you've just said and it's extremely useful comment would you need another break or can I just can I ask a few more questions about what you've just explained to me okay okay you said you across refering yeah the

00:59:42 you said you across refering yeah the information on your list at cj b3 here which is on the screen to what which manager Sadler had on his forward information board what did that involve you got you've got a list of numbers flat numbers people and floors

00:59:53 numbers flat numbers people and floors and ticks what so cross referring involved comparing what I had gathered from what the bridge already had to what

01:00:05 from what the bridge already had to what we would have we had outside and try and identify if there are any differences and where if there were or where there were record is necessary so that that

01:00:16 were record is necessary so that that was the objective to make sure that we had the same information because I'm conscious that inside the tower maybe they had gathered more information

01:00:28 they had gathered more information through perhaps people coming down people approach information they've got from crews so we needed to my understanding of the objective at that time was to simply make sure we knew what we had then we moved to a corner

01:00:41 what we had then we moved to a corner area and we start collecting that information onto the FSU forms and get them into the bridge to make sure they get dealt with right just before we move to those forms and going to ask you

01:00:53 to those forms and going to ask you about in just a second can I just ask you about what information was then fed back from the forward information board you were running with watch manager Sadler did you inform cu7

01:01:08 Sadler did you inform cu7 of the fact that crew ba crews have been dispatched by the bridgehead to all those flats which you'd had which you

01:01:19 those flats which you'd had which you ticked that's not a task I performed so watch manager Sadler was running it and I was basically running around foot running around for

01:01:30 running around foot running around for him for lack of a better expression so that stage watch managers in charge of that and I'm assisting an example of that is when I went off to go and find

01:01:41 that is when I went off to go and find the forms in example if that is when I ran back up to the bridge you know ran to the bridge initially together so why I personally didn't relay any of that information okay do you know whether

01:01:52 information okay do you know whether watch manager Sadler relayed any of that information I thought no you have to ask him okay

01:01:58 him okay they're moving on to forms that you're referring to in your statement you refer to them as I think six eight seven ones just so I've got an idea we can all

01:02:10 just so I've got an idea we can all understand the form you're talking about is this the form that's a story can I just pause you there apologies I'm just trying to I'm looking at this statement

01:02:22 trying to I'm looking at this statement is I'm not recognising it it says it's the statement of Michael Dowden I don't know how that yes that's not a I don't know what you've got there that that

01:02:33 know what you've got there that that looks like Michael Darden statement you shouldn't have because I just want to make you aware that that was thank you

01:02:44 make you aware that that was thank you people yes they thank you very much if your file is the blue one I think yeah can I ask you just to be shown on the screen

01:02:55 policy 790 FSG the first question is this a policy you're familiar with yes okay second

01:03:06 you're familiar with yes okay second question could he please it's shown appendix - yep which is on internal page 8 yeah I recognize that form can that is

01:03:20 8 yeah I recognize that form can that is that the form that you're referring to in your statement when you call it us against the control information we call it a FS g pad FS g pad yeah yeah from your experience but just understand

01:03:32 from your experience but just understand this form where are they kept in terms they're kept on all frontline appliances in the crew cap between where the driver sits and the officer-in-charge dips there's a small cubby hole with which we

01:03:47 there's a small cubby hole with which we keep all our forms and folders in and that's one that we generally keep near the top and well marked because because on the routes of incidents we can be

01:03:58 on the routes of incidents we can be contacted by control to relay information to us so certain Bass Pro Skater okay they're also carried on the command unit right so okay and they're

01:04:09 command unit right so okay and they're in quadruplicate I believe yes can you then explain what you did with these forms yep so when the first seems like

01:04:22 forms yep so when the first seems like the first three were written out by this point just getting in in and out of the tower wasn't an easy task it wasn't a question of walking from here to the

01:04:34 question of walking from here to the door when I said it kept getting worse words don't do it justice how how crazy the scene was so I've got

01:04:46 how how crazy the scene was so I've got those forms I talked it into my tunic and I was on the way to drop them off to the bridgehead right just pause there sorry I'm good allow you to carry on you don't - no but when you

01:05:01 the forms that you are carrying were they filled in with information yes yeah and what scientist bird off of the information board we had I see yeah and that information was new information was

01:05:13 that information was new information was it that had come from the community I can't confirm that but it was again just to conceptualize it so lots of information is coming in we utilize the FIB to capture that quickly now it's a

01:05:25 FIB to capture that quickly now it's a process of getting those individual forms filled out and that information came off that that fib but I can't confirm if that was information we had there for five minutes to MIT or knew it

01:05:37 there for five minutes to MIT or knew it was just information off the pit right okay information off the fib and then you went to the bridgehead you've just explained there's a difficulty with it yeah I was um assisted by a member at

01:05:51 yeah I was um assisted by a member at the police right and how many runs do you think you made to the bridgehead

01:06:02 you think you made to the bridgehead with information forms like this throughout that night yes I'd love to know okay I'd never know but it was it never stopped it was continuous until

01:06:13 never stopped it was continuous until the daylight hours where I've gone to explain up a tasks are performed so just in general terms the basic features of your movements you go from the place you

01:06:25 your movements you go from the place you were filling these forms in the fall in the airport into the lobby into the lobby now at times that was through the original door and not long after it was

01:06:36 original door and not long after it was then for as I've explained in the statement through improvised openings that we had to make because it became too dangerous on the south side of the towers again and up and then you'd go up

01:06:48 towers again and up and then you'd go up to the you go to the bridgehead can I just refer back to my concert proneness no it's just to help me still I'm right in my head

01:07:07 CSO to answer your question taking them from the bin area where we were sheltering from from the commotion and also that the water coming down and the febri we would take in those forms

01:07:19 the febri we would take in those forms into the into the tower right the bin area yes and I have to ask you to get back to your map do you remember where the bin area was yeah I can describe to is basically under the walkway of

01:07:33 is basically under the walkway of Lancaster Wester State right we were improvising it there was so bitter bins big wheelie bins and we were in that area there working in that area there

01:07:44 area there working in that area there and the information that had come to you in the bin area yeah had come from where I believe Charlie uniform 7 command units of it okay how how did it how had

01:07:56 units of it okay how how did it how had it been communicated from cu7 to you in the in the bin area by radio or by by these pieces of paper um I can't be entirely sure but I would imagine both

01:08:09 entirely sure but I would imagine both both I guess you the answer I caught a can't confirm that do you remember receiving these control information forms from cu7

01:08:21 information forms from cu7 at the bin area I don't remember that specifically the only handling of the forms I remember is once they were written out I would take them into the

01:08:33 written out I would take them into the tower right was that who was helping you or sorry who was involved in this exercise at the bin Aaron firefighter Broderick from Hammersmith myself these

01:08:46 Broderick from Hammersmith myself these are just the people I remember I'm there were more people there I can't remember was 'watch major Sadler watch manager Cole tress enough station manager Cole

01:08:57 Cole tress enough station manager Cole dress and I remember times people's of just

01:09:03 just being very careful to make sure this process was done properly and calmly but you know the sense of urgency even to the point where by you know just as we

01:09:17 the point where by you know just as we were on our knees and at one point order very close to the ground and everyone got handed the sheet and I said I'll take the first three and everyone

01:09:28 take the first three and everyone started filling it out so yeah all right that's what that I'm just trying to paint a picture of what that scene looked like your involvement was at that stage to run controlling from the

01:09:40 stage to run controlling from the essentially a runner to the richer and at the bridgehead when you arrived at the bridge had each on each occasion what did you do with the control information for okay so I have no recollection of getting to the

01:09:52 recollection of getting to the bridgehead with any of them forms that the first was the next key thing I remember is being stopped by a watch manager Glenn Williams who stopped me I

01:10:03 manager Glenn Williams who stopped me I said no no I'm taking off to the bridge nice and he explained you know what we're gonna do is we're gonna record the information here in the lobby area and we utilized the ball which he was right

01:10:14 we utilized the ball which he was right enough he had already gathered a lot of information on that Warren I don't know where that information came from but he'd gathered a lot on the wall and as I said in my statement this worked well because the traffic on the stairs was

01:10:28 because the traffic on the stairs was very very busy and it was again I'm trying to paint the picture it was a very dynamic and chaotic scene and also afforded us lots and lots of room to record the information and he explained

01:10:43 record the information and he explained that we'd come there record it there and then the information would go from there up to the bridgehead so I see so you've essentially were communicating between

01:10:54 essentially were communicating between the bin area or the information coming in from see you at 7:00 then yeah to essentially the lobby where the information on these forms was being written up on the wall yeah and as I

01:11:06 written up on the wall yeah and as I said just just a build on that YB I thought the bin area works well in some respects because it was very close and it cut down our travel time to get which again wasn't a travel time of just

01:11:18 which again wasn't a travel time of just being able to walk into a building it was it was difficult to even get into the building so then get into the building record it there and then as I said and

01:11:32 record it there and then as I said and then from there it would go up to the bridge which I believe at that stage was still on the second floor and how would it go from the ground floor where it was written I think you said on the wall I hope to be I think there were runners I

01:11:43 hope to be I think there were runners I think there were runners again the bond can't be a 100% sure can you remember who they might have been any names and moving the forward information board

01:11:54 moving the forward information board that you were operating by the pin area to the pin area did that make did that make you further away from cu7 closer to the time so for eligibly equal

01:12:06 closer to the time so for eligibly equal distance but closer to the tower and shelter from all the water and the debris and in a place where we could even hear ourselves talk and that you know it helps us to go to that choir is

01:12:21 know it helps us to go to that choir is there is there any reason why the rate the put this question this way were there any radio operators in cu7 that you knew of who are receiving far

01:12:32 that you knew of who are receiving far survival guns call information from the control room

01:12:41 do you know of any reason why cu7 couldn't communicate directly with the bridgehead by radio again I don't have that information I don't know you don't

01:12:52 that information I don't know you don't know is there any reason why cu7 couldn't communicate directly with someone on earth with a fire ground radio in the lobby at that stage again I

01:13:05 radio in the lobby at that stage again I don't know yet you'd have to ask the crew what was your general experience of radio communications at Greenville channel free was very busy so I went onto channel 3 quite early an instant

01:13:17 onto channel 3 quite early an instant which was a dedicated channel for fire survival guidance and it was busy right what about using other channels did you experience difficulties using other

01:13:29 experience difficulties using other channels in with respect to the amount of traffic or the how well they worked how will they work how while they worked

01:13:40 how will they work how while they worked again as I've described running and go above the fourth floor and I've described

01:13:47 described when questioned in my statement you know some issues we commonly have with radios but on the night that the key thing was the amount of traffic just going back

01:14:00 the amount of traffic just going back then just one or two more questions on this topic going back to your exhibit CJ b3 as I says can can I take a break is of course ago so I don't think I'll stay interested in what you were saying I

01:14:11 interested in what you were saying I forgot thank ask you how much longer do you think you may be with this witness probably another 10 or so minutes I think I think that longer I have

01:14:24 I think I think that longer I have afraid overstayed my welcome say no it's not that it's just that I think we will be sitting here for over an hour might be a good idea to have a just over a 10 minute break it's good idea for everyone

01:14:35 minute break it's good idea for everyone yes very good right what it ain't here for an hour already yeah any time things are great you gave her the usher and we'll we'll come back up 20 past 3:00 so you've got

01:14:46 come back up 20 past 3:00 so you've got just over 10 meters

01:15:02 you

01:26:43 I'm right mr. better we think this is the last lab yes mr. chairman mr. better be

01:26:59 can I just ask you to look at cjb three please in your statement bundle which is your list and I want to ask you about

01:27:11 your list and I want to ask you about the ticks now you said that those were ticks you put on there recording the information you got from the bridgehead yes manager - Silvo that crews have been

01:27:22 yes manager - Silvo that crews have been dispatched to those flats and floors you my question is based on that information how would see you seven know that crews deployed to a number of these flats have

01:27:35 deployed to a number of these flats have come back I don't know how that information was passed or if it was I don't know CIMMYT similar question how

01:27:46 don't know CIMMYT similar question how would see you know cu7 know that crews dispatched to those floors had left residence on those floors and not managed to rescue them

01:27:57 was there a system to establish the result of the deployments that you take on that document I don't know who would know the answer to that do you know I

01:28:09 know the answer to that do you know I would suggest that the command unit crew might be you know they will have information do you know who they were I mean we could find out our documents do

01:28:21 mean we could find out our documents do it from the top for me you recollection who were the individuals you were dealing with on them in cu7 I don't have a recollection on the night of who's on that machine you'd have to

01:28:33 of who's on that machine you'd have to look ok

01:28:37 did you have any personal interaction with anybody on that machine during the night

01:28:49 not until the berry or the one I remember is I remember sin I think it was Tony Peckham outside of sees them

01:29:00 was Tony Peckham outside of sees them but this is when I say the following day you know the following morning and I remember a one-stage as I've explained

01:29:12 remember a one-stage as I've explained in my statement I went to see you seven to speak with some buddies as I said I must to get the SM bar don't and don't member those people off and if deployments of be a cruise to

01:29:25 and if deployments of be a cruise to these flats and floors did not result in successful evacuation how would further deployments take place to residents who still remained in those flats or

01:29:37 still remained in those flats or non-basic floors do you know can you repeat that question one question was it it's you tick these flats and floors on this year paper indicating that PA crews

01:29:49 this year paper indicating that PA crews had gone up there how would further deployments take place to residents who had been left behind in the event that

01:30:00 had been left behind in the event that house deployments how would it or how did it how did it I don't know how should it I would imagine that like any team and goes to perform a task if that

01:30:13 team and goes to perform a task if that that task isn't complete then another team would be allocated and briefed to carry out that task do you know whether that happened I didn't witness that I'm up I didn't see any see that do you know

01:30:26 up I didn't see any see that do you know whether there was a system at the bridgehead for redeploying crews to flats and floors where there had a not a failure of evacuation no okay

01:30:39 I'm all of than the last topic here mr. thing mr. battersby can I ask you to look at turn your witness statement

01:30:48 the page 13 don't page 13 a theme near

01:31:02 the page 13 don't page 13 a theme near the bottom of the page in the last but one paragraph you say I remember when I had just finished passing some forms to watch manager Williams in the lobby we were met by firefighter Lawson g28 yes

01:31:15 were met by firefighter Lawson g28 yes it had just come down from the tower he passed us two flat numbers that I believe are on the 18th floor that is correct and informed us that there were people inside I read this down on a piece of paper and watched manager

01:31:27 piece of paper and watched manager Williams rate this information up on the wall we passed that information straight to watch manager Watson g36 who I believe took it upstairs to give it to the bridge that's correct

01:31:38 the bridge that's correct I've read you that in full because I just want to ask you one or two questions about that whole paragraph yeah do you remember which flat numbers you you were past no do you remember the

01:31:54 you you were past no do you remember the names of any residents no do you remember what firefighter Lawson told you about the 18th floor my two vivid

01:32:07 you about the 18th floor my two vivid memories of that I remember great comments men telling me and then the next key thing I remember is I remember passing out information to Paul Watson and I remember him walking away

01:32:20 Watson and I remember him walking away from me back towards the stairs to the bridge that's what I remember of that and who's Greg sorry apologies Oh firefighter Greg Lawson Gulf 28 Wilson

01:32:36 do you remember whether there was any discussion about whether to deploy further firefighters to the 18th floor I

01:32:48 don't remember any discussion as I've said I remember Greg coming to me I remember getting that information to Paul did you do you remember what it

01:33:04 Paul did you do you remember what it what's manager Watson was going to say to the bridgehead did you did you find that out I didn't I didn't find out what the result of that

01:33:15 didn't find out what the result of that was because that I'd pass that information to him and I was confident that would go to the bridge

01:33:31 you were running messages I think from the bin area into the building I think you said earlier for the for most of the night if not all of the night two

01:33:42 night if not all of the night two questions in that foot first of all do you remember whether the bridge had moved at any time during the time you were doing at from the second floor as I

01:33:54 were doing at from the second floor as I said in my same I remember one time it seemed like they were pulling where is down and everyone was coming down to the lobby area we kept on going with what we

01:34:06 lobby area we kept on going with what we were doing but I remember that I had no

01:34:12 that's that's that's it

01:34:21 and

01:34:26 do you remember whether they came a time when the fast survival guidance calls that you were involved with running into the tower stopped so the fire survival

01:34:38 the tower stopped so the fire survival guidance cause of our efforts going into the tower yes we never stopped when that sort of task came to an end was the

01:34:50 reason why I say that trying to again trying to conceptualize it I was informed I was informed at one stage

01:35:02 informed I was informed at one stage during the night and it was still still dark by far fight over Ferguson from Chelsea that callers went up in advise

01:35:14 Chelsea that callers went up in advise to make it right you know to get out if they could but we didn't stop we kept on going with our efforts yeah we kept going until like I

01:35:27 efforts yeah we kept going until like I said in my statement I've got to the point where you know I moved on to a different task

01:35:36 she does mr. Chen did you give me yes cool

01:35:41 cool [Music]

01:35:59 mr. right yeah

01:36:06 I only have one more question literally one more question so I've been asked to ask that's fine that's fine is theirs okay yeah I wash it you just ask you I want to keep back was ever right it's just one more question and that's if you

01:36:18 just one more question and that's if you could have a look at your statement page 13 second last paragraph you refer to meeting firefighter Lawson who just come down from the town do you remember what

01:36:34 down from the town do you remember what to squat discussion if any you had with firefighter Lawson memory he came down

01:36:46 firefighter Lawson memory he came down and he explained that there was still people up there and that he couldn't he

01:36:58 people up there and that he couldn't he couldn't bring them down

01:37:08 and I remember I remember and vividly common up to me and telling me that information that you know that was still people up there and then again like I

01:37:19 people up there and then again like I say the next key thing I remember is it's handing that piece of paper to watch manager Watson and and seeing him seeing him walk away and there's a piece

01:37:31 seeing him walk away and there's a piece of paper now can I just see if this works can you go back to see jb3 your list yep should be put up on the screen

01:37:45 list yep should be put up on the screen and it's on the screen mister yes if you want to see it there at the bottom it says 18th yeah yeah I can say that at what point was it you added that

01:37:58 what point was it you added that information we'll put that information on to that Lisa that's my handwriting the only art would have broke votes on that do you think you put that when did you put that information on to the onto that piece of paper I can't even recall

01:38:15 that piece of paper I can't even recall what that there refers to what it would have been after all or the cross-reference and initially would have

01:38:26 cross-reference and initially would have taken place with Louisa - Silvo cos looking at you can see it's not in the same but I can be certain as to what that refers to I don't remember does that addition to your list have an

01:38:40 does that addition to your list have an even anything to do with the conversation that you had with firefighter loss Katie 18th floor it could have been violin but that I didn't I didn't show him one notebook or clearly didn't give him that because I

01:38:52 clearly didn't give him that because I still had that piece of paper I remember giving him a separate piece of paper with information on it right would that have been enough in the form of the beep the six-month seven eight I don't think

01:39:04 the six-month seven eight I don't think it was I don't think it was or it might have been again I can't be sure but I remember giving him that information give you an idea what Greg Lawson did with that information well he passed it

01:39:16 with that information well he passed it to me and then I passed it - without watch major ports and refer to be ingest if they would go back up to the go back up so much I meant I meant Watson I was sorry yeah it's my fault I

01:39:28 Watson I was sorry yeah it's my fault I don't know what happened to that information after that

01:39:37 mr. genin I have there further questions for cream eligibility and Cremona traumatically thank you very much for your evidence today I want to say how

01:39:48 your evidence today I want to say how grateful I am to you thank you thank you so nice I'd reiterate that really grateful to you for coming to tell us what you can about what was obviously a really distressing experience and I

01:40:00 really distressing experience and I think everybody in the room will understand how difficult it's been for you to describe some rather painful memories so thank you very much your evidence will be very useful to us thank

01:40:12 evidence will be very useful to us thank you thank you all right well when you're ready you can go with the after

01:40:36 nervous develop what's next what's next is who is this is mr. brown firefighter Daniel Brown yes I'm told

01:40:47 firefighter Daniel Brown yes I'm told that he's keen to start and equally keen any food

01:40:51 any food losing afternoon I agree it may be they would benefit from a very short break just to make sure that he's ready everything settle done and can I ask the

01:41:05 everything settle done and can I ask the Chairman um how long we would sit for this evening well a long day I would normally not want to sit beyond about 4:15 very good because although the

01:41:17 4:15 very good because although the witness went have been giving evidence for very long everybody else in the room somebody been sitting here for quite a long day yes right so I I would like to try and rise by 4:15 I'm willing to go

01:41:28 try and rise by 4:15 I'm willing to go on beyond that in order to finish the topic pretty good I think we all looked regard for 30 as being is really hard well I may be able to get through quite a bit in even actual so you can see how we go so I'll rise now didn't five

01:41:41 we go so I'll rise now didn't five minutes is that five minutes it's a five minute oh well can I hope no can I say ten course of course of four not for me but there may be other people who need me any longer all right well I sense resistance um

01:41:52 all right well I sense resistance um well any only because witnesses waiting to come on presumably is waiting and I don't need a break all right okay well it's five minutes so say five minutes it is if it needs to be longer let's tell the action and I'll wait

01:42:05 let's tell the action and I'll wait bring it otherwise change it to four please

01:42:16 you

01:54:05 yes it still it I think mr. Brown is it mr. Brown he's no he's just about ready I believe yes

01:54:38 yesterday yes could you take this all the affirmation kids I do solemnly sincerely and truly I do so many it

01:54:51 sincerely and truly I do so many it sincerely and truly declare an affirm that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth

01:55:03 truth nothing but the truth it's well I gather you've been working all day to give your evidence I'm sorry I'm sorry we kept you waiting so long you won't seem preferred to stay yes please

01:55:14 please if at any stage you'd like to change your mind of course feel free to say thank you right yes well it good afternoon mr. Dunham noon and could you please give us your full name my

01:55:25 you please give us your full name my name is Daniel Richard Brown thank you first can I thank you very much for coming to give evidence to the inquiry it is very much appreciated by the inquiry team my questions and I say this

01:55:37 inquiry team my questions and I say this to all the witnesses my questions are intended to be short and simple but if you have any difficulty understanding them or hearing me then don't hesitate please to ask me to repeat the question

01:55:48 please to ask me to repeat the question or put it in a different way if you feel you need a break at any point please just let us know this afternoon I think will be a short afternoon duty please

01:56:00 will be a short afternoon duty please take your statement which should be in the bundle in front of you at Tab 3 a and its met references met em et triple

01:56:11 and its met references met em et triple zero one zero eight six seventh and you should also have some contemporaneous level and notes in there at tab three B

01:56:23 level and notes in there at tab three B which are dr b exhibit one yes correct and those are Emmy T quadruple zero five two five one and then there are two

01:56:35 two five one and then there are two exhibits to further exhibits to your witness statement exhibit two should be a map in tab C yes and the met reference to that is met triple zero one five

01:56:46 to that is met triple zero one five seven four six and then exhibit three Diaby three a plan which is metrical zero one five seven four five is that there yes yes have you read your statement recently no I haven't right

01:57:00 statement recently no I haven't right have you did you read it when you completed it yeah I did yes right and at that time were you satisfied that his contents were true yes thank you have you discussed your

01:57:14 yes thank you have you discussed your statement or your evidence with anybody before coming to the inquiry no today to give your evidence no I haven't no thank you

01:57:21 you um you say in your statement that you joined the London Fire Brigade in 1990 1991 1991 yeah how old were you when you joined I was 20 20 years old 20 years

01:57:33 joined I was 20 20 years old 20 years old and you've been an active firefighter since then have you yes could you give us a summary of your career since I joined what was the London Fire and Civil Defence Authority back in January 1991 I spent just under

01:57:46 back in January 1991 I spent just under six months training at Southwark training school from there I did a years probation then after four years I took a number of tests and drew

01:58:00 basically a four year Lea was called in and that I'm passing that was then deemed qualified as a qualified firefighter

01:58:11 I think the following year are completed my motor drivers course and I've remained I've always been posted to North Kensington and I've worked there

01:58:22 North Kensington and I've worked there for my whole career 27 years always on the red watch always on the red ball always on the red watch and in terms of

01:58:39 always on the red watch and in terms of your level your training level you say that's competent correct and what does that mean well when not became competent is actually called qualified semantics so if this basically means that I was

01:58:51 so if this basically means that I was deemed that I'm qualified firefighter I've undergone a number of tests and that is a continuous program where you're forever doing them drills and you

01:59:06 you're forever doing them drills and you just do it an ongoing process where they're continually monitoring how your performance and how you're performing and if they identify any issues then they'll work with those and that

01:59:17 they'll work with those and that maintains your competency right and when was the last time before June 2017 you were assessed for your competence I think it's just an ongoing process I don't think this is specific this is your test day it's an ongoing process

01:59:29 your test day it's an ongoing process with everything you do yes I see um in terms of training can you tell us what the most recent training before June 2017 you received but it would be

01:59:43 2017 you received but it would be impossible to say specifically what type of training you're doing training for everything continually and being the desktop classroom study or drills in the

01:59:57 desktop classroom study or drills in the yard or sometimes you'll do an organized exercise out on the ground somewhere you have special risks on your ground so sometimes you'll focus on those such as

02:00:08 sometimes you'll focus on those such as we have Wormwood Scrubs prison on our ground so we'll focus on organizing exercise there just it helps us familiarize get used to what we're doing practice is everything and we just always ready from doing those things

02:00:21 always ready from doing those things yes okay thank you can I ask you to be Shane please paragraph 24 page 27 of your statement and the third paragraph on that page you say in the last three

02:00:36 on that page you say in the last three sentences in that paragraph I have previously received training was it was last year at Hammersmith this is called

02:00:47 last year at Hammersmith this is called back-to-basics training I went through setting up bridgeheads and similar things just want to ask you about the back-to-basics training yeah course and first of all was that training course

02:00:58 first of all was that training course for the whole of the North Kensington watch it was yes they say last year and given that your witness statement was

02:01:09 given that your witness statement was signed in 2018 Jane mm a little I think we meet there it was prior it was pre Grenfell from

02:01:20 it was prior it was pre Grenfell from memory but I couldn't I could not give you a specific date or years it's about two years ago okay it's really hard to remember because we do so much it's really hard to give specific dates on

02:01:32 really hard to give specific dates on anything to be plainer and can you give us an idea about what the back-to-basics training calls him so for memory I think it the back to basics was put out for the whole brigade obviously what not all

02:01:44 the whole brigade obviously what not all at once and so you were tasked to go to a station when you're on the street ejek resource and you'd meet up with a number of other stations and then you would

02:01:56 of other stations and then you would basically do the training program which is basically going back to basics it's in the title and on I think that one was about high-rise procedure it's that one

02:02:09 about high-rise procedure it's that one the back-to-basics tree although there's been more than one there was a previous one a year or two years before that which was at Paddington right when did the back-to-basics course come in I think this is the second one that

02:02:22 in I think this is the second one that I've done so in history terms it's relatively quite new from mayest what would you know what prompted the London Fire Brigade to start delivering back a back-to-basics course I do not know

02:02:33 back-to-basics course I do not know amendment and and you mentioned high-rise training in the context of the back to basics course can you elaborate a bit more so it was specifically about high-rise procedure and dealing with high-rise incidents so we do it

02:02:45 high-rise incidents so we do it practical and and in the soap with so many stations there you end up doing it in a number of it would be happening three or four times it within the day a group of four or six would do the drill

02:02:58 group of four or six would do the drill then they'll go off into the classroom the next four come along they'll go in the classroom and it's just routinely like that so it was it was practical for practical and then up to the classroom right did the back-to-basics course

02:03:13 right did the back-to-basics course contain anything about how to deal with a multi compartment fire in a high-rise block

02:03:20 block it always does high-rise one of the basic things in high-rise drills and de CJ's never think is a covering jet should a compartment fail you've got

02:03:32 should a compartment fail you've got covering jet to stop that fire from spreading above the flat there where the compartments broken so absolutely yes right but only at the bottom of page 27 you look down at the foot of the page

02:03:45 you look down at the foot of the page you see you say our previous training has always worked we rely on the

02:03:56 has always worked we rely on the building is designed to do its job yes compartmentalize the fire we do not have training or what the prices should be of compartmentalization fails that is a wording that is in my mind real fire

02:04:07 a wording that is in my mind real fire training so it's all all training that we do is in imagination so you have to imagine so as much as you're standing there put in a jet above the window there's nothing there so you've got to

02:04:18 there's nothing there so you've got to imagine that actually that fires traveling above so it's not real if that makes sense is the imagination that's most training imagining isn't by imagining as people in they're imagining something's not working right everyone's

02:04:31 something's not working right everyone's imagination is different okay so in this imaginary world of learning training training I'm sorry to diminish its importance mr. grandpa but but but what do you learn

02:04:44 grandpa but but but what do you learn will about what you should do if you see compartment ation failing in a high-rise block well just the fact that you're you're putting a cover in jet and you explain why you're doing this right from

02:04:57 explain why you're doing this right from there or so you can stand and think why am I doing this we'll explain why you're doing it because you you're looking at for that compartment to fail but of course in training that compartment never fails no and you talk about a

02:05:11 never fails no and you talk about a covering jet that'll be on the exterior that's correct yet why do you think training about compartment ation failure would only concentrate would concentrate

02:05:23 would only concentrate would concentrate on covering jet on the outside I think it's it could be I would imagine it's down to resources because you can't have

02:05:34 down to resources because you can't have fire engines off the run everywhere really needs to be on call 24 hours a day so it'd be difficult and very labor intensive to then add additional crews to what you would normally do is send

02:05:45 to what you would normally do is send another crew up to fight the fire inside that that compartment and so on and so on it's very labor intensive and we're an operational flight services cannot afford to have that meant via fire

02:05:56 afford to have that meant via fire engines off their own did your training contain anything less when I say your training I mean I either in the back-to-basics course or even more generally did your training contain anything about exterior fire spread

02:06:08 anything about exterior fire spread spread on the exterior of a building only in that should the compartment fail at the window and what did that training tell you the literature again covering jet above that it well you have to

02:06:23 jet above that it well you have to imagine again it's down to imagination this this window that's broken it's got a compartment I seem to be on the sixth floor there's not a lot else you can do outside if you're an aerial is not there

02:06:34 outside if you're an aerial is not there with your training you can't realize that aerial so the answer is do what you can on the outside in jail and if a neighbor was not gonna wheel world you just get up in sight up

02:06:46 wheel world you just get up in sight up to the next floor because you always fight the fire inside out let me be a bit more specific okay did you ever receive any training on what would happen if the exterior of the building ignited I think you need to

02:06:57 the building ignited I think you need to be more specific but specific with the gas - what is the exterior part of the building because it becomes an imagination thing he's hit a brick building a concrete building did you

02:07:09 building a concrete building did you have any training about cladding no did the trading provide any guidance to you as to what the appropriate response would be to fire spreading vertically up

02:07:22 would be to fire spreading vertically up the exterior of a building no what about laterally across the facade and then were you aware from your

02:07:35 facade and then were you aware from your experience about lachrymal house no we did a basic again a basic desk top package that's theory and and no not

02:07:53 package that's theory and and no not really

02:07:53 really there was the training on it wasn't great now in what in my opinion right this is if you need I think if you're

02:08:04 this is if you need I think if you're not at the incident it's really hard to gauge really hard to gauge from the other side of London exactly what was entailed in it this incident but what's written on a bit of paper okay it's very

02:08:15 written on a bit of paper okay it's very hard to understand what's meant what he said what is meant you say that you did a basic desktop package was that a basic desktop well it was national house it

02:08:28 desktop well it was national house it was a training package delivered by my watch manager right when was that I do not know and was it like no how specific

02:08:40 not know and was it like no how specific it was I think again I can't be a hundred percent I don't know we have so much coming our way it's really hard to be specific do you remember any training materials slides and

02:08:51 materials slides and matters of that don't know and you say wasn't that great what wasn't great about it it's just very hard because literally most of the training that we

02:09:02 literally most of the training that we receive is just text written on a bit of paper

02:09:05 paper it's just taught recently I printed out is to give in to the watch manager there you go deliver that so London's a very large brigade it's huge and you've got four watches per station

02:09:18 and you've got four watches per station there's a hunt boy it was a hundred - I think it's 103 stations now it's a massive task to undertake and that's the fire service really struggles with this budget so it delivers what it can the

02:09:29 budget so it delivers what it can the best stick hustle it's just to be fair it does actually quite remarkable job in my opinion but we could really do with a bit of investment really have you ever heard of a fire of shepherds cause I was

02:09:42 heard of a fire of shepherds cause I was actually all the dom to it but on the day i was standing by it because there wasn't enough personnel at back to see because there was short of a driver i think we were halted on when it was made pumps 20 but again once I've got there I think they've dealt with the incident so

02:09:53 think they've dealt with the incident so I didn't really get involved you weren't involved he didn't I didn't get involved but the time we got there it's quite a long distance from Battersea to Shepherds Bush it takes about a long time to get there in the middle of the

02:10:04 time to get there in the middle of the day it's a lot of traffic so they extinguished it and something weren't required so I think we've been left do you recall an ever receiving well let me just give the date your remember the

02:10:15 just give the date your remember the Shepherd's court was I think 19th of August 2016 so I could you whichever's call the date August 2016 you know remember no it did after that

02:10:26 you know remember no it did after that date super just to give you a timeframe okay you remember being trained all the lessons that could be learned from the Shepherd's caught fire no no but I don't

02:10:39 Shepherd's caught fire no no but I don't think it's that uncommon what happened to ship with bushfire because the window from my understanding and conversations does I think I think my watch was ordered on to it for North Kensington at the time and naturally we just talk

02:10:51 the time and naturally we just talk about what happened because we like to learn things and improve all the time it's a constant thing and I understand that it broke out of a window and as much as it went up and started to affect the window before next window it didn't actually break in

02:11:03 next window it didn't actually break in because you need that window to break down and then the fire to then grow in that compartment as well and that's quite it's a quite a fair process for that to actually happen and expect that

02:11:14 that to actually happen and expect that room to be able to hold that fire for 30 lengths of time before that room would eventually flashover and force enough flame up to the next window so you'd like to think that each time it's going up in a compartment you'll have time to

02:11:25 up in a compartment you'll have time to get crews in and deal with it before it reaches a point of fleshing over up to the next one that is my understanding yes okay were you ever given any

02:11:36 yes okay were you ever given any training about how to conduct a mass evacuation of a high-rise tower block no because the the whole evacuation we can

02:11:48 because the the whole evacuation we can when if when a fire happens if it has an alarm system that is the effect evacuation point the time we get there the evacuation point is lost there is no

02:11:59 the evacuation point is lost there is no chance to evacuate the whole point of having evacuations the procedure is of an integrated fire alarm we don't do evaluations we do we do assist and rescues there is no evacuation procedure

02:12:10 rescues there is no evacuation procedure we can do it's impossible you're asking people to come down through stairs that could be smoke logs that they might not make it that is just giving up on them we have a process and we will get in

02:12:21 we have a process and we will get in there get them out we can you can't just leave them for affray for when you say it has an alarm system do you mean a whole building along the whole build of integrators alarm system so it tells

02:12:33 integrators alarm system so it tells everybody there's a fire in a building get out before the fire before the fire has time to grow and develop and take hold because once that happens smoke travels anywhere you could have you

02:12:47 travels anywhere you could have you could have a system where it's sucking air out at the second air out of that room and pushing it somewhere else you don't know we don't know let's ask you about whole building alarm systems

02:12:58 you about whole building alarm systems yeah I mean you've been in North Kensington as a as a frontline firefighter yes since in 1991 correct yep in your experience are

02:13:10 1991 correct yep in your experience are are there blocks high-rise tower blocks in North Kensington which have whole alarm systems 18 with regards to

02:13:21 alarm systems 18 with regards to residential tower residential no no although Grenfell used to have Grenfell used to have an integrated fire alarm system with the concierge yes could you just elaborate on that a little bit and

02:13:34 just elaborate on that a little bit and so on the ground floor they speak concierge and there was a fire alarm panel in there and I believe there was an alarm system I can't hold the simply this is a long time ago but I believe there was a head or on every lobby and

02:13:46 there was a head or on every lobby and if we love you on every floor and used to go to many fire alarms there it was sometimes it was actually a fire or we could have been the bin room outside that's drawn in smoke inside there's lots of different reasons why alarm will

02:13:57 lots of different reasons why alarm will go off sometimes a fires not always could just be burn cooking could just be a bit of dust but the whole building would actuate what would happen the idea is that

02:14:08 what would happen the idea is that everyone evacuates that is your evacuation point there's a fire in a building Gail in your experience did the hold of Grunfeld tower ever evacuate some did some didn't scissors I'll be honest since Grenville tower I think

02:14:21 honest since Grenville tower I think most people are taking fire alarms a lot more seriously than they used to and people are evacuating like we would hope they would do when the fire alarm goes off don't have a fire alarm you can't you don't know you're not aware of

02:14:32 you don't know you're not aware of what's going on you know just trying to get to the facts here so until what point in time do you remember Grenfell tower had a whole building evacuation

02:14:43 tower had a whole building evacuation along I do not know the answer to that what I would imagine they removed the smoke alarm system the same point and move the concierge but again I don't know the date

02:15:02 only say and I asked you of whether they were in your experience mass evacuation of from Granville tell you say some did some didn't is that on some occasions or even more some people it's everywhere

02:15:14 even more some people it's everywhere across all buildings across the whole of London I part of working at the on the frontline within a fire station is there's a real struggle for resources we

02:15:25 there's a real struggle for resources we we're I think we're nearly 300 firefighters short right now it's real hard it's really hard to maintain pumps on the run particularly summer so many are coming off the run during the summer it's really hard to maintain a level of

02:15:36 it's really hard to maintain a level of fire cover it's it's it's a real struggle it's hard I won't lie but um I'm sorry I'm went in a rifle that's my

02:15:47 I'm sorry I'm went in a rifle that's my angry and passionate and well let's turn keeps the to the facts cuz I was over here to to examine yep and just in terms of facts you said a minute ago some did

02:15:58 of facts you said a minute ago some did some didn't when I asked you about evacuations in a London can I just ask you the question I'm sorry question is when evacuations happen to Grenfell

02:16:09 when evacuations happen to Grenfell tower prior to the integrated alarm being removed was there mass evacuation or not I could not tell you because I do not have any way or anybody has any way

02:16:21 not have any way or anybody has any way of knowing how many people are in that building at that specific time some people might be in some people may be out and then short of going through every single flap and 24 floors knocking on their door you would not know the

02:16:33 on their door you would not know the answer to that okay if you don't website to finish I was just gonna say what what you do is an integrated fire alarm system on the panel it will light up which area whether the where the smoke

02:16:45 which area whether the where the smoke detectors actuated so who could say zone 3 on next to that fire alarm panel the zone would be indicated what floor and what flat

02:16:53 what flat or what Florrick we don't have imagine with grenfell because it's more lobbies rather than individual flats yuppies have traveled the whole building you go to where that smoke step is actuated

02:17:04 to where that smoke step is actuated because after telling you where the fire is and during the time casting your mind back during the time when this integrated alarm was present at grenfell tower do you remember what the standing

02:17:17 tower do you remember what the standing advice to residents was in the event of a fire when there was an alarm system in place yes I do not I could not remember I I could only guess and I'm not gonna do that now in your statement you say

02:17:31 do that now in your statement you say and this is again page 27 second paragraph in the foot in the second paragraph there I previously be honest a

02:17:42 paragraph there I previously be honest a section 70 you D visit to Grenfell tower it looks from that as if you'd only been on one is that right or had you been on more than one mister I swear I didn't know you know hundreds of hundreds right

02:17:56 know you know hundreds of hundreds right since since what yeah I have what it used to be called a one one day it's now 72 day I've been doing one one day 72 Oh what is now called 72 days since nineteen but since July 1991 was when I

02:18:08 nineteen but since July 1991 was when I went operationally from training school so you twenty six and a half years so in the twenty six and a half years of being on red watch at North Kensington how

02:18:19 on red watch at North Kensington how many times do you think just guess I suppose you'd visited grenfell town on the 70 or a11 170 degrees I could not ever ever been answered I do not know

02:18:32 ever ever been answered I do not know very often yeah you would you would go there naturally anyway just four calls or there'll be some reason to go to these places I cannot remember how often one Mondays

02:18:46 I cannot remember how often one Mondays but I think I think back then again I'm really able to go back I think it commanded a fire certificate so I think this fire certificate commanded us or that the buildings I have a visit once a

02:18:58 that the buildings I have a visit once a year and it wasn't just a familiar ization visit which is pretty much what 72 D does what it was was that fire safety and fault visit with it to ensure that they that

02:19:09 visit with it to ensure that they that the building was meeting its fire regulations and to make sure that the fire system supplier systems in place are there and not just making sure they're there but we test them we'd look

02:19:21 they're there but we test them we'd look at them would physically in theatres I mean we will test everything we've got to the top would first of all your derive he looked for the hydrant you'd make sure that the the access if there was a fire gags make sure that was clear

02:19:32 was a fire gags make sure that was clear you'd make sure if there's yellow lines which is a keep plate make sure that no one parks on there and if there was you go to the concierge and say sort that out do not let people park there they

02:19:43 out do not let people park there they need to go to the fire list you make sure it had to fire lifts in place you'd make sure it works you didn't just look at it say there's a fire lift you and then say this is how you tested this this check this file if this is part of the fire safety enforcement you'd

02:19:54 the fire safety enforcement you'd actually physically put the key in and operate the fire lift and then that would work you think that to the top floor you'd look at the emergency lighting you'd look at fire doors you'd make sure the

02:20:06 look at fire doors you'd make sure the self closures was there and not only would you make sure the self closure is there excuse me to your test the self closures worked it sounds as if from

02:20:17 closures worked it sounds as if from that answer that this is something you would do in the distant past but didn't do anymore we don't do it anymore because it's all been taken away so I've been privatized it's no longer our responsibility to make sure that these fires enforcement and fire certificates

02:20:30 fires enforcement and fire certificates and these fire safety things in place it's not a business anymore apparently it's been all privatized okay okay we're perhaps straying away from from yet some factual questions um what was the last

02:20:44 factual questions um what was the last visit well when was the last 72 D visit that you paid two grand Felton last time I went to grateful Tower was I believe I think the dry riser would had come off

02:20:56 think the dry riser would had come off the run what does that me because I think well so the dry riser it was basically non operational because they were extending it but I think it was on the third or fourth floor again a compliment

02:21:07 compliment other witnesses of so yeah I think it's the third floor and though extends Nick down so basically it was gonna be in operational for an of days while they extended that down and and so I think we went there to just

02:21:18 and and so I think we went there to just to check that out and see what their plans were and then we went back again but I'm not sure that we can't carry that that visit or it was another watch but I know our watch went back to make sure that that was completed located the

02:21:32 sure that that was completed located the new visor

02:21:33 new visor Inlet and basically okay thank you very much it's back on the run um mr. Brown forgive me I know sorry your health afresh I can see there are others in the

02:21:44 afresh I can see there are others in the room who may be less fresh okay put it that way mr. Chanin it's maybe a convenient point to break I'm gonna go into some detail along and the evidence has just been given it but it may be better to do that first thing in the morning yes well mr. Brown I'm sorry

02:21:57 morning yes well mr. Brown I'm sorry we're going to interrupt your evidence so soon but there it is we've reached the sort of time of day when we do that can I ask you please now you've started giving your evidence not to discuss your

02:22:08 giving your evidence not to discuss your evidence or any other aspect of the Masters we're dealing is until you've finished completely which will be sometimes I'm okay especially thank you thank you very much you know what time we get to resume you want to pause may I also we start at

02:22:21 want to pause may I also we start at 9:30 9:30 do you mind being here please starts at 9:30 okay thank you gave me the usher that's thank you thank you

02:22:40 thank