Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Outbreak of fire (6 July 2018 Pt 2 of 2)
00:00:06 yes I think I think mr. chief justice way now
00:00:18 [Music]
00:00:27 yes once a minute mr. O'Keefe can I thank you for coming back can I can I ask you first of all a question about these fr use yes and I think I was
00:00:38 these fr use yes and I think I was suggesting to you that the general call had gone out for fully DBAs a little bit later than perhaps it was the case can I ask you to look please at the short incident login tab 23 of the bond walk
00:00:50 incident login tab 23 of the bond walk and go to page 22 this is an entry at 216 fifty a makeup
00:01:02 216 fifty a makeup CUA from DAC O'Laughlin make FRU times 10 that would be the call for a year for use righty BA and given that we've got
00:01:13 use righty BA and given that we've got an identity to share to you but given that we've got group manager Welch looking at status 3 at OU 157 yes we have that makeup of fu 10 does that help
00:01:25 have that makeup of fu 10 does that help you in most I mean claim he will walk he would have gone away from me I think would have been a point for discussion amongst the senior officers that attending and then the decision was made
00:01:37 attending and then the decision was made up as a result of that - may I make her for use turn right thank you now I want to get back just to follow up one or two things on the Hipple stern
00:01:50 one or two things on the Hipple stern rescue or attempted rescue on the 16th floor first of all from your knowledge do you know whether people and stern
00:02:01 do you know whether people and stern were at any time with the resident that they met on the stairs I don't know okay so I may have suggested to you inadvertently that HIPAA and stern were with him but I
00:02:13 HIPAA and stern were with him but I contend you don't know more about that rescue and can I ask you to look at a photograph and be shown I think it's tab 50 in the documents bundle mr. doctor
00:02:25 50 in the documents bundle mr. doctor mr. rector and it's M et triple zero one five six four two this is a photograph we've seen before this earlier this week which has taken I think right burn just wait lit up right this is a
00:02:39 burn just wait lit up right this is a photograph taken by Justin they burn as he tells us and he his evidence is that it was taken - OH - 17 yeah a minute or
00:02:52 it was taken - OH - 17 yeah a minute or so after the vfo you make up we've just seen by coincidence could you just look at it with me I mean
00:03:11 could you just look at it with me I mean first of first of all that you can help us with this it says 16 up there but let me ask you have a prior question do you
00:03:22 me ask you have a prior question do you know who's getting what this is who's writing that is well it's either I'm say it's either Justin Auburn or watch manager Luis Silva okay and these are
00:03:35 manager Luis Silva okay and these are the silver and that information was coming from where do you think okay I
00:03:47 I don't know exactly the time that watch manager de Silva came to the bridgehead but when she came pardon me when she came to the bridge ID ID the details horror to take control of
00:04:03 ID the details horror to take control of EI control and FSG information right before she came to the bridgehead I had detailed crew manager our sorry
00:04:15 detailed crew manager our sorry firefighter Oberon to utilize the ball to right the FSG information because as he had indicated to me the forward
00:04:26 he had indicated to me the forward information bar was full I mean he did so I instructed him to write it on the wall right so I don't know who's writing it is okay we'll come back to that photograph in a minute I'm sorry it's my fault I've taken you to the wrong
00:04:37 fault I've taken you to the wrong photograph okay but the information you've just given us about that photograph this is important so I'll come back to it shortly if you go please to the photograph that one 307 for which
00:04:50 to the photograph that one 307 for which was which was Jo v8 [Music]
00:05:14 I mean you get the reference um et triple zero one 307 four
00:05:24 yes No
00:05:28 do you recognize that that writing that the set of inscriptions not specifically
00:05:41 the set of inscriptions not specifically would be what's written on the wall by our guys and the in the bridge shows right and you know who was writing that's not again it would be either
00:05:52 that's not again it would be either right of not just for a fire burn but other individuals who individual for photos and an officer watch manage of the silver but who came to the bridge
00:06:04 the silver but who came to the bridge change we're working on the bridgehead as part of our team and can you help me with a particular inscription there on the bottom left bottom right hand corner you see written
00:06:19 bottom right hand corner you see written is an angle from bottom left to top right look at 1-1 3-8 people 14th floor yes now there it is in enlarged form do you remember Justin who's writing was
00:06:31 you remember Justin who's writing was that do you remember I don't remember okay do you know when that was written there
00:06:35 there I don't do you know the circumstances in which that came to be written there it would be first of all I would go install that would be a fast loan but I will give you circumstances right now it says
00:06:47 they think oh it says 1-1 3-8 people I remember when I when we had to when we eventually ended up in the lobby of having air people in the facility still
00:07:01 having air people in the facility still but not apps not that specific rising I don't know who loaded okay
00:07:13 close then get back to the photograph I was showing you before which is a one five six four two
00:07:32 and if we can enlarge it halfway down
00:07:40 it says yeah thirties it says 1 1 3
00:07:53 14th floor yes with a tick next to it VA what does that tick me then it's been searched I would guess but I didn't put the tick there so I don't I don't know
00:08:05 the tick there so I don't I don't know all right if we just pan out and just go back to the list a little higher up you can see one three three sixteenth floor
00:08:18 can see one three three sixteenth floor casino yeah do you remember the circumstances in which that came to be written there no now that's right look that's the 16th floor do you think that that came to be
00:08:31 floor do you think that that came to be written there after Stern and hip L had reported to you that they had not been able to make a rescue on the 69% right
00:08:47 and then if you look at one five six to four which is a different photograph to see if I can just cover this off one five six to four more faster Bible
00:09:03 five six to four more faster Bible guidance written on the wall looking again flats the floor 16 it looks like
00:09:15 again flats the floor 16 it looks like different a different wall and a different set of numbers can you help with that no III know I know that the you know because I had each other people
00:09:27 you know because I had each other people to write on the walls and they were writing otherwise but because I was so involved in other activities but that's where I delegated this walk to another watch manager right well said who was sent to assist me at Bridget and you see
00:09:39 sent to assist me at Bridget and you see it says 16 one three three they're in a ring do you read can you enlarge that please
00:09:49 it'll be enlarged
00:09:55 sixteen looks like one three three there's a ring round it was smudged next to it can you help with when that was put there no or whether that was after Hipple and stone I told that you don't
00:10:07 Hipple and stone I told that you don't okay we may have to come back to those photographs later can I then turn to
00:10:20 photographs later can I then turn to finish off this Hipple and stern deployment you say he said before this she did before the lunch break that as soon as they came down without having made the rescue on the 16th floor you deployed another percent of firefighters
00:10:32 deployed another percent of firefighters we thought they were feeling well though I say I look the system was such that if rescue was deal was not carried out by a
00:10:44 rescue was deal was not carried out by a crew that was detailed to carry out the rescue a subsequent crew subsequent crew would be committed to the same yeah until we could get a rescue or not right and if you could please be showing the
00:10:57 and if you could please be showing the telemetry data in tap one of the documents bundle we can see the end of where time from Hipple and stern don't
00:11:08 where time from Hipple and stern don't one thirty five thirty eight thirty five and a one thirty eight forty no that's not tap one with telemetry data
00:11:19 yep and if you go to first of all let's start with the wet end of where time for Hipple and stern and we see in the blue column or the right-hand side of the
00:11:31 column or the right-hand side of the screen at the end of people and Stern's where time is o one thirty eight thirty five and a one thirty eight forty okay and how soon after the end of where time
00:11:43 and how soon after the end of where time do you think you dispatched the next set of ba whereas to the 16th floor immediately RR as soon as that one was available right so we're looking for a
00:11:54 available right so we're looking for a dispatch now and about that time they're looking down in on the tally out time in the break and the green column we've got a trio of ba whereas from Kensington and
00:12:08 a trio of ba whereas from Kensington and two from Hammersmith Broderick broad Rick and Sefton tallying out at 138 138 o2 and 127 do you think that might have
00:12:19 o2 and 127 do you think that might have been be sent next I I don't know okay what about the of the we know that we know that but what about the five from Paddington Hammersmith and Paddington
00:12:31 Paddington Hammersmith and Paddington Wolfington James felt some Benjamin etc in blue no that's on the right one the the fight that's it the fight there do
00:12:45 the fight that's it the fight there do you think do you think you sent five firefighters up to the 16th floor I can say a sin Phi by apparently
00:12:56 again I couldn't tell you okay well rather than guessing do you remember whether the next set of firefighters you sent the 16th floor was was a pair or whether it was a group
00:13:07 was a pair or whether it was a group larger than a pair I don't remember right and you said you thought it was evening but having thought about it again
00:13:15 again do you remember what station they were from no right so can I now turn to the next deployment Murphy and Cornelia net
00:13:28 next deployment Murphy and Cornelia net and page and at term in page ten you say going back to your statement third of the way down
00:13:40 the way down I committed another crew a four person crew firefighters Murphy and Cornelius and two others who I can't recall to go to flat 111 on the 14th floor where
00:13:52 to flat 111 on the 14th floor where there was one about mayor FSG in excellent pets a four-person team and if we just go back to go back to the
00:14:12 we just get back to the telemetry data we can see their time at dispatch I'm sorry to take it off the screen Cornelius tallies out of a 151 if you
00:14:24 Cornelius tallies out of a 151 if you look at the green column and Desmond Murphy they 151 24 it looks as if they've gone as a pair but do you think that the other two below them Campbell
00:14:36 that the other two below them Campbell and Mills from talents and also worth living I don't recall both I do nothing I split up on the way up right okay that yeah they were going up to our firefighters okay yeah right but just
00:14:50 firefighters okay yeah right but just using Cornelius and Murphy then we've got their tally out tons of 1a 151 more or less so that'll be about about one with it I've actually met them when they came down I'll come to where they come down just in the moment we just ask you
00:15:03 down just in the moment we just ask you some questions about what you discover when they go up they go up when they go up there do are you able to speak to
00:15:14 up there do are you able to speak to them not on the way up now right before they went up yes but okay and and what brief did you give them before they went up when I told him to take firefighting equipment was they took quite a lot of firefighting when I said there's a fire
00:15:26 firefighting when I said there's a fire reports of fire not just smoke and that they had one individual in a I camera named number of the flash adult male and they were firefighting section Wesley
00:15:42 they were firefighting section Wesley right he says the FSG called thylakoids call and he said he had reports of actual fire in that yeah that's why I sent him with the firefighting equipment
00:15:54 sent him with the firefighting equipment did you remember recording what having recorded on the wall or any of those walls but the bridgehead the the information that there was fire in that flat I not me personally no okay
00:16:19 and
00:16:29 they go up there and then they come to come back down again and you say at the top of page 11 of your statement maybe a crew of firefighters Murphy and
00:16:41 crew of firefighters Murphy and Cornelius then returned to the bridgehead without the other two crew members I didn't know where they've gone they looked exhausted and reported to me that they've reached that 111 and found the male occupant so just pausing there
00:16:54 the male occupant so just pausing there when they came back down are we to take it they gave you a debriefing yeah it was quite a troubling one because they were in about very bad shape in a bad shape yes and just in terms of their
00:17:07 shape yes and just in terms of their time at which they came back to the bridgehead we just look at the telemetry data again tab one and look at their tally out time you have that in there as
00:17:28 an unrecorded but an end of where time deliver the blue column to 1835 in to
00:17:40 deliver the blue column to 1835 in to 1934 that's given that they tallied out at a 151 or so what would that tell you about how long they've been up there how
00:17:52 about how long they've been up there how how easy it has been for them it very difficult for them right because this why we could see that no continue sorry no you could see their final pressure
00:18:03 no you could see their final pressure there 53 for Charles Cornelius of 78 0.474 yeah Desmond were fee is that is that no
00:18:16 Desmond were fee is that is that no that's quite low hey you're no pressure warning which the sun's at 84 bar yes
00:18:26 you've got 12 minutes to get out really and you say they were quite bad weren't bad could you would you could you just expand of what you mean
00:18:37 could you just expand of what you mean by that I could yeah they were they had abandoned their photo flirting kit above they didn't think they were going to make over life that's what they said to me alright that's a far father Murphy said to me they'd have really shaken you
00:18:54 said to me they'd have really shaken you said that they couldn't see any of the door numbers they didn't know his floor they're wrong and I specifically remember a far for a girl from telling me Delia T uses far far as Heinlein to go
00:19:06 Delia T uses far far as Heinlein to go up close to a floor number to try and find a wonderful way where they were really that they had found the individual of the flash but because of
00:19:17 individual of the flash but because of the density and when they went there they found another seven people from various flats who came to them for help they were unable to take the a people oath
00:19:29 oath right you need a pool let's give him all the things of course
00:19:43 so I knew I had air people know I'm down that floor and what in one flat they put people when the flat was they deemed to be the least smoky flash and they
00:19:55 be the least smoky flash and they reported that to me and as far as I recall I died I deployed another clear be a crew immediately to that area I don't know I'm really sorry about this
00:20:08 don't know I'm really sorry about this building I do I can't remember most of the crews I only know this because firefighters cornelius north uniform might watch and there are friends of mine just focusing on where they had
00:20:22 mine just focusing on where they had found the other seven was that in the same flannel same floor but then in the same flat as the male ocular flat flat one floor not the same flat the same
00:20:33 one floor not the same flat the same floor when they kick the door in I believe right and they found I won't say his name because I don't really want to save name its relevance at the moment
00:20:46 to save name its relevance at the moment I should say okay take it you know just take your own piss
00:21:00 and so they placed the the only thing they could do was place people in the place which they understood to be safe for that time and they told them that
00:21:12 for that time and they told them that somebody will come back to get them yes
00:21:21 and
00:21:24 you then say halfway down page 11 but I passed on the information I'd receive from firefighters Murphy and Cornelius to the incident commander and to watch
00:21:37 to the incident commander and to watch manager de silver I believe she was though then now in terms of passing it on to the incident commander do you remember who that was at that stage I
00:21:48 remember who that was at that stage I asked for the I asked for them to bring it down information out to the Jensen commander and that'd be recorded on the bridge house for briefing on the cruise that's it was active at that time right
00:22:00 that's it was active at that time right do you remember the name of the incident commander at that point I think was I don't know how many prompts it was at the stage or who had taken over right I wasn't aware of what was going on outside at all were you aware well do
00:22:12 outside at all were you aware well do you remember that a major incident had been declared may aware about at all right and was the conversation of the debrief you had with Murphy and Cormac
00:22:24 debrief you had with Murphy and Cormac Cornelius was that after your conversation with mr. wood group member to Welch about Edie bas before it was before yeah certainly was before okay long before I don't know right
00:22:43 and so but based on their tally for the end of where time that we've seen you can't tell us can you who the incident
00:22:54 can't tell us can you who the incident commander was and when you say you passed it on to the incident commander can you tell us what you did well I couldn't make any comms I was in contact
00:23:07 couldn't make any comms I was in contact with various officers who are covered to the bridgeheads I was giving them information and I was giving information that any information that has they will also give that information far far as
00:23:18 also give that information far far as Cornelius Adam often will give that information to the entrance-hall board and whoever was in a running that system at the time and do you think that Watts
00:23:29 at the time and do you think that Watts manager - Silvo recorded the information that Murphy and Cornelius if she is there she certainly would have right can I just ask you to look at a photograph again I think it's one we looked at it
00:23:41 again I think it's one we looked at it may be to go but it's coming back to it it's met triple zero one three zero four two and this again it may not be the
00:23:52 two and this again it may not be the right one so he may have to look at one or two others you alright with that mr. O'Keeffe
00:24:04 let's start with that one
00:24:22 yes and say we looked at this before this is where we see a hut 1-1 3-8 people 14th floor bottom oven right there having been through the story now
00:24:35 there having been through the story now telling us about the debrief you got from Murphy and Cornelius can you explain that writing on that wall there
00:24:46 well or nine flat 65 what we saw was crew of four and their names are they're canceling at the writing at the end
00:24:59 canceling at the writing at the end three with three rooms and Johnson home routes 14th floor no I'm sorry I'm going to interrupt you so it's the writing which isn't in a
00:25:10 so it's the writing which isn't in a ring or box but we looked at a minute ago if it can be enlarged please yes please
00:25:16 please it's in the bottom right hand corner of the picture so one one three eight people 14th floor there that writing on the wall there just about they would have been put into do you think that why
00:25:29 have been put into do you think that why don't I don't want you to speculate you know that would that would be that would be in that yeah what the disorder cording you know would be the recording of the information that they give northern right okay so we have it okay
00:25:42 northern right okay so we have it okay okay
00:25:46 and
00:25:55 if we can then
00:26:04 look
00:26:09 yes and then you say you you detailed another be a crew to rescue the occupants of floor 40 yeah are you ready
00:26:22 occupants of floor 40 yeah are you ready to go on would you like a break okay no I'm half just took just to put you
00:26:33 no I'm half just took just to put you back in your statements this is just before halfway down on page eleven you say I detailed another and then detail another be a crew to rescue the octopus of floor four team was that an urgent matter for you
00:26:44 matter for you everything was urgent right I'm just sort of try and see if I can get my get an indication of who that might have who that might have been in that crew first
00:26:57 that might have been in that crew first of all do you remember what you said when you briefed the newbie a crew no I mean to be to be as I cannot recollect
00:27:08 mean to be to be as I cannot recollect briefing the new crew they very much manage of the server or some prefactor and we're right under location because when Chelsea's watch manager were the
00:27:19 when Chelsea's watch manager were the server arose because of the volume event of information and to control that information I put a watch manager horror
00:27:31 information I put a watch manager horror Luiza the server in charge of that tasks specifically right I see and
00:27:42 [Music]
00:27:51 we have some evidence from from from witness statements that a firefighter called orchard and Herrera were briefed to go to the 14th floor to go to a flat
00:28:05 to go to the 14th floor to go to a flat one on one okay is that something that rings a bell with you no it doesn't
00:28:14 what about the names juggins and Macallan No
00:28:24 can I just show you an entry in the telemetry data again yeah of course if you go to the bottom of to be a time line 3 and there's that there's a white
00:28:36 line 3 and there's that there's a white box of 5 VA where's 3 from Lambeth one from Chelsea and one from sober Evans blocks of Marrero Ferguson an orchard whoo tally out sorry just a minute turn
00:28:50 whoo tally out sorry just a minute turn just a minute I'm going to keep the right Part B is my line 3 I know it's probably beyond it's lower down the next page
00:29:07 because the next page
00:29:24 great thank you and if you look at the top of that now you'll see a block of five firefighters treating Lambeth London Chelsea went from Soho all
00:29:38 London Chelsea went from Soho all tallying up 202 24 33 26 and then 30 27 yeah I recognized one there it does that
00:29:50 yeah I recognized one there it does that trigger the names actually right and does that trigger a recollection in whether or not that group was the group no they weren't as favor of the group that found the firefighter who was lost I see iris tinkling when they can tip
00:30:03 I see iris tinkling when they can tip off the fire for me okay well I didn't want to fish around in this thing if I can crumb to recollection cuz I never knew it this way do you remember the size of the be a contingent that you sent in order to rescue the occupant
00:30:17 sent in order to rescue the occupant silver 14 don't and do you remember what happened when that second crew that you had briefed came back to the bridgehead no do you think you've had a debrief with them no I the I didn't know right
00:30:30 with them no I the I didn't know right did anybody else have a debrief with now you have to ask watch manager Lily's the server right
00:30:45 now jumping ahead if I can in your witness state if I got to go on to a different document maybe game for 30 minutes I think I put it down for a short break you don't be a good thing the key I
00:30:56 you don't be a good thing the key I think the woman yes I thought you might yes we'll we'll have a break for 10 minutes back here at 20 to 3 they're discussing your evidence thank you very much
00:31:09 and 22:3 please
00:31:21 you
00:41:53 well mr. minutes I think I can say without too much fear of contradiction that we're all feeling the heat of it I'm sure O'Keefe is I am yes maybe you
00:42:04 I'm sure O'Keefe is I am yes maybe you are and others too so I think what we should do is to finish this afternoon's session by 3:15 if you reach a natural
00:42:16 session by 3:15 if you reach a natural point before then or a little bit before then it will be well we'll take that yes otherwise we're finished at 3:15 and I think give you a bit of respite thank you very much thank you sister Jenna mr.
00:42:29 you very much thank you sister Jenna mr. O'Keefe thank you very much can I take you to page 15 of your witness statement and I'm going to just ask you to look at
00:42:40 and I'm going to just ask you to look at the bottom of that page
00:42:46 and one just to give you enough opportunity to look at that say we could identified perhaps when in time these things are happening but you say eight
00:43:01 things are happening but you say eight lines up from the bottom it was now there was also apparent now that all ba crews were EDB a cruise and then he go on to say there was a lot of noise and
00:43:12 on to say there was a lot of noise and shouting in the lobby I was continually handed pieces of paper by runners because the comms were no longer working and then you say we had the very old-fashioned but dependable method of
00:43:24 old-fashioned but dependable method of people physically getting numbers from the command unit then running the gauntlet of debris and other things coming down on them to then give me pieces of paper into my hand all of these numbers went onto the wall then it grew and grew I kept all of these pieces
00:43:36 grew and grew I kept all of these pieces of paper and put them into my trouser pocket after the incident I took them from my pocket and carefully unstuck them from each other they subsequently been handed to the lfv accident investigators now we think we've got
00:43:49 investigators now we think we've got those as just help me lfb quadruple zero one nine to nine if we could just have a look at that yeah that's the so that was
00:44:06 look at that yeah that's the so that was on the lobby one bill we had to evacuate the third floor of bridgehead and he was an emergency evacuation and that would have been around 4 o'clock
00:44:18 that would have been around 4 o'clock but I remember seeing the never lose my notice that you've got 4 420 on one of them in all 4 or 5 which is a time of the morning it was good so at that time
00:44:30 the morning it was good so at that time we had well before that the entire bridge had miss evacuations and these pieces of paper were being handed to me
00:44:42 pieces of paper were being handed to me directly
00:44:43 directly right and I was putting I drew a map on the wall of a tower it's a pictogram when I was transcribing this information onto the wall okay let me see if I can
00:44:56 onto the wall okay let me see if I can piece piece this together then so in these pieces of paper yes you were getting when you start getting pieces of
00:45:07 getting when you start getting pieces of paper like like this when did you start getting pieces and these people when did I start yes those pieces of paper when I
00:45:19 I start yes those pieces of paper when I was on the ground floor when you were on the so when the bridgehead was on the ground floor that was towards the that was a lot of stages of the incident right yes so you weren't is this right
00:45:30 right yes so you weren't is this right you weren't getting pieces of paper like this before that I think I may have I didn't have the remote unit right I just happened to put these together because there was so many coming and they I
00:45:44 there was so many coming and they I didn't deliver I probably did at the time like I got the call I put them in a bundle and put them away my my leggings of my tunic and I find a fun kid who was
00:45:55 of my tunic and I find a fun kid who was giving you these pieces of papers and Watson and we're okay where was he where were you standing when he was going to be standing the end of the stairs of the very beginning of the stairs in the lobby the
00:46:09 beginning of the stairs in the lobby the ground floor and floors yes and where was 'watch manager what's and getting them from he would have been getting from the side I do put a map up I could
00:46:20 from the side I do put a map up I could I could poke wait the fire first I created they're broken in a new so not the front of the building which was the south side yes it would've been the west possibly the
00:46:32 it would've been the west possibly the West Western site that was a door they've made an open there which was the only safe access at that time into the building our semi safes that access
00:46:43 building our semi safes that access right and he was picking up I believe picking up the paper so they were somebody would run to the door I didn't hand it to him and he would want to me give it to me I walked in it
00:46:55 give it to me I walked in it do you know who it was that was writing this information all these pieces I don't okay so is it what was happening that these pieces of paper was writing already on that was being given to watch manager Watson we've done giving them do
00:47:08 manager Watson we've done giving them do they give it to you and you don't know where or do you know where the the person who gave this information to you know I will tell you that the those
00:47:19 know I will tell you that the those pages are from an officers and officers notebook right we all carry them you know - next - for recording reasons and
00:47:31 know - next - for recording reasons and so they were being written on this on these pieces of paper and they were being handed to me individually like so I I would then transcribe that information onto the wall and then
00:47:43 information onto the wall and then briefed on coming EDB aircrews of you know for example 14th floor of one one two 14th floor one one three and so on
00:47:54 two 14th floor one one three and so on yes and the time of Oh for 10 or 410 or 420 or for five so that's when around that time was that the time to your understanding that
00:48:05 that the time to your understanding that that information had been recorded yes when the person who wrote this on their rated yes there would be today of a couple of minutes what it was we did the information has been transformed to me right and
00:48:31 you can see
00:48:34 oh 4:30 on the right hand side 82 that inlet looks like a level 3 purse three persons yeah did you get much
00:48:50 persons yeah did you get much information in addition to what we see on these pieces of paper no the number of people in particular apartments uh yes
00:49:01 yes so in 122 is didn't have a paper in our and yeah you would have had number of persons or not yeah and as a case is
00:49:15 persons or not yeah and as a case is right when you were given a flat number you know people in there and did you understand that this meant just take for example a four ten list of flats on the 14th floor there did that mean to you
00:49:28 14th floor there did that mean to you that there was still residents yes in those flats at Oh for ten yes right let's say you took that information into your hand what don't you do with it so I drew a pentagram
00:49:39 you do with it so I drew a pentagram over Torah right on the water there next to me right and I put these numbers on the wall in a in an order that I could understand and I complete the crosnes
00:49:50 understand and I complete the crosnes right and did you brief the crews with it yes and what did you tell them you and I we take for example a 410 flat one one three when when a baby a clumsy okay
00:50:03 one three when when a baby a clumsy okay you're going to flat 12s are the flat 92 on the underfunded twelfth floor and that would be a day that there would be more to the briefing than that but that
00:50:14 more to the briefing than that but that this is specific sort of life risk that says and where they are okay
00:50:24 now we have some evidence that a watch manager called Alan Moore ran slips from outside the tower from the crew manager up to the bridge head and gave them to a
00:50:36 up to the bridge head and gave them to a watch manager he thinks might've being you and he did the same thing when he got to the ground floor do you think does that trigger oh yeah watch manager Watson wasn't the only person giving the
00:50:47 Watson wasn't the only person giving the information right but towards the latter part he was the only person coming in right with information but other officers were handing me slips but if I
00:51:01 officers were handing me slips but if I can come texture lines but this wasn't you know I need a tower span you know and it was a deluge of information you know understand they did - you're the
00:51:14 know understand they did - you're the first of your understanding was there any kind of prioritization being applied to these they were all prioritized as anyway every first of all of guidance
00:51:26 anyway every first of all of guidance call has it has the same level of priority they just have the same heightened state of urgency it's as quick as you can and as best as I can right can I ask you to look at one or
00:51:37 right can I ask you to look at one or two other documents first of all lfb zero zero zero zero one nine five one
00:51:48 which is a standard form control information form six one seven eight and that's got one three three scribbled out which says left and then one three four
00:52:00 which says left and then one three four one three five sixteen do you recognize that handwriting no I don't recognize the handwriting do you recognize the documents I dream that mr. dolphin could you just explain what that is that document is called as having all frontline appliances
00:52:14 having all frontline appliances operation of their fire engines right it's as you can see on the top there are four copies four copies when fire crews or receive information from
00:52:26 fire crews or receive information from or control on forcible employments no and progress meaning that they have persons confirmed trapped within a building usually the driver of the
00:52:41 building usually the driver of the appliance but if not use somebody very and firefighter officer but put the information on this one do you remember receiving documents such as this when
00:52:53 receiving documents such as this when you were with managing the bridgehead possibly I don't remember right let's see if the next one triggers a recollection one nine six one LF feed quadruple zero one nine six one same
00:53:04 quadruple zero one nine six one same kind of form and this one says premise number 142 and 143 seventeenth floor and then at the top some was written Priory
00:53:15 then at the top some was written Priory which I imagines priority five persons that looks like in 142 and the time is over for thirteen do you remember receiving this document or possibly again possibly the only
00:53:27 or possibly again possibly the only reason I know that the other dog that I received you know they're smaller was is because I found them a week later and my children right I hadn't remembered getting them Oh actually said so you found these in your tunic give you after
00:53:39 found these in your tunic give you after the sequence well yeah when we go to incidence where this is quite an involved one well or far gear gets contaminated with various reasons the
00:53:53 contaminated with various reasons the correct procedure is to have it cleaned we keep a stop on stations so you can put it in for and for specialist steaming right and if we keep a lot of
00:54:08 we keep it our personal items and and no books in are enough you know for a gift so I just take me on several of my partner by pops before I
00:54:19 several of my partner by pops before I submitted for cleaning and I found those yeah those doc when she was I which I consider important yes to any subsequent inquiry so I get into our or our own our
00:54:33 inquiry so I get into our or our own our own senior management team as will forward them to the police
00:55:03 just going back a little bit earlier in time in the evening could I just ask you to be shown page 41 of the ORR this is
00:55:17 to be shown page 41 of the ORR this is the operational response report at oh one 2654 you just want to ask you one or
00:55:29 one 2654 you just want to ask you one or two questions see how probably compared with this information it may not be that far but it's seen it's a call recorded by
00:55:41 it's seen it's a call recorded by brigade controller oh one 2654 from a flat throughout 186 on the 21st floor do
00:55:55 flat throughout 186 on the 21st floor do you remember being on the bridgehead when that fire set of survival guidance information came through no
00:56:07 I mean if it was all 1:26 I was on the bridgehead or I don't remember that specific information
00:56:19 I just said about hundreds of calls going through and then oh one 38:38 we've got a cord this is page 67 of the
00:56:35 we've got a cord this is page 67 of the operational response report and what if you could just be shown that only one 38 38 we've got a call being taken them I do great control which is 183 on the
00:56:51 do great control which is 183 on the 21st floor flat 183 and the 21st floor again the same question do you remember anything about that and page 81
00:57:10 look at that
00:57:27 there's a call there time today 150 49 relating to flat 133 or 460 we've discussed and flat 182 or the 21st floor
00:57:40 discussed and flat 182 or the 21st floor do you remember anything about a faster by the guidance coming in after that time in relation to flat 182 on the 21st floor and not specifically both her they I remember the name multiple forms so I
00:57:55 I remember the name multiple forms so I don't know if again I mentioned again there watched nigel de silva who was managing the FSG on the picture she may be able to shed more light than our or
00:58:06 be able to shed more light than our or firefighters or burn our set over yes Monstar officers
00:58:24 yes just just to chase that one done this a little bit further if you could just be shown a met triple zero eight one five six two five this is a
00:58:36 one five six two five this is a photograph I showed you before it's adjusting a burn photograph which he took just before moving the bridge head from the bridge from the bridge head I'm sorry at 308 am as would he know that's
00:58:47 sorry at 308 am as would he know that's that's when the bridge was evacuated that's right yeah and then I asked I asked Mike room to photograph the wall which they did we had to save the
00:58:58 which they did we had to save the information bringing bonus so we grabbed the breathing apparatus boards and took photographs of bottles on the wall I brought a minister to the ground floor yeah yes and in that photograph can you
00:59:12 yeah yes and in that photograph can you just see it says just below the top of the list 21 and then there's a tick next to 204 and then 182 has got a circle around it and a tick through it do you know what the circle around it
00:59:23 do you know what the circle around it means I know I don't both I don't know I I can only guess and I don't want to do that no I tell ya you know make a
00:59:36 that no I tell ya you know make a experience guess but nevertheless I guess or an order and the tick through it what would did you know what that represents was when I was doing similar
00:59:47 represents was when I was doing similar walk downstairs take a minute searched across lead I mean deceased or
00:59:54 rescue right and if you continue on page 81 but in the operational response report if it says
01:00:21 excuse me it yeah it's um
01:00:41 and so I've given you a wrong reference and Gawain or Griffin so I'm going to ask but in general terms were you aware of requests coming through from control
01:00:52 of requests coming through from control to prioritize calls in Joe exists yeah and was there a message to come through to prioritize based on smoke density the
01:01:04 to prioritize based on smoke density the priority would be on numbers proximity to fire or the intensity of smoke you know if information was received from the residents that there was firing air
01:01:15 the residents that there was firing air boy that would be given fair priority yes
01:01:29 and I have a question about an early evacuation do you remember a man coming out of a flat on the second floor in the very early stages of the fire people did
01:01:43 very early stages of the fire people did come down in the very early stages of us they some were okay right because no there wasn't timings the severity hadn't developed at that time do you remember somebody coming out of the flat or the
01:01:54 somebody coming out of the flat or the second floor of being told to go back into his flat no do you remember somebody making him a 999 call on being told someone's coming to get you in the
01:02:07 told someone's coming to get you in the in that flat and a flat will below a low floor on the second floor yes and that's where we were on the second floor no I don't remember that right okay
01:02:22 okay let's ask you to get back to the one more picture which is a meaty triple zero one five six four two look there's a number of times in play in relation to
01:02:34 a number of times in play in relation to different flats I'm sorry to keep jumping about but you'll see on this
01:02:41 they're three quarters of the way down you can see one to two fifty smoke you see that sorry can you repeat that
01:02:53 see that sorry can you repeat that yes you could see up there it says ba what one to two fifty smoke okay that would signify that the flat wants you want a 15th floor don't smoke right
01:03:05 want a 15th floor don't smoke right either in the first inning here or in the flat well that's why I was going to ask me do you think it refers to smoke within the flat and you don't ask the controller operators about that one right and again can you help us as to
01:03:16 right and again can you help us as to where the information about slope well I came from the occupant of the flat 2 or control and then to us by unusual circus move from the occupant of the flat
01:03:28 move from the occupant of the flat through the control room right to the command unit and then through the fog that's correct we're getting its way up desert that way around that's so far suburban garden sports right a car of course walk right service virus fire survival guidance
01:03:40 service virus fire survival guidance class thank you
01:03:49 so thank you very much now can I don't ask you about
01:04:05 about four how hi firefighter to get into the building starting at page 11 of your statement and I think we've covered
01:04:17 your statement and I think we've covered this before but I just want to get start from this point you say three quarters of the way down page 11 our bae crews were reporting
01:04:30 page 11 our bae crews were reporting that they were unable to reach the upper floors before reaching their turnaround times is that something you where you say i transmitted that to the incident commander did you rather which incident commander it was that you told that to
01:04:42 commander it was that you told that to Richard well that's welcome Angela right and would that be at the same time as this early conversation of a DBA right well he I just like remind you he said
01:04:53 well he I just like remind you he said what are you doing what what tactics our activity are you implying and I told him yeah I can't remember the exact forms of the entire conversation they accept that
01:05:05 the entire conversation they accept that it wasn't working and we couldn't really we couldn't we couldn't successfully reach certain areas yeah and that to do that will require at the very minimum
01:05:17 that will require at the very minimum extended duration breathing apparatus schools yes to give us more about more
01:05:28 schools yes to give us more about more resources to do that
01:05:35 um [Music]
01:05:39 yes and then over the top of the next page you say makes 12 but you made the decision to allow VA crews to go past entry control point without going under air yes we're outside policy but we
01:05:52 air yes we're outside policy but we weren't reaching and rescuing people because crews will run neogeo ICC say
01:05:58 given the conditions in the stair do you think that actually saved much time for those firefighters yes we did how much further do you think that that enable them to get I don't know well my informations that there you could get up
01:06:10 informations that there you could get up to a certain level where it became really difficult for smoke you know really smoke logged I can't remember the actual level so I thought if I extended the duration of the standard duration
01:06:21 the duration of the standard duration Pierre crews it would give them a safety margin that bought more air to allow them to either try and rescue I at least get back over themselves yes and you go
01:06:34 get back over themselves yes and you go on to say lower down in that in that paragraph that was a hard decision and increased danger to the VA crews
01:06:46 increased danger to the VA crews themselves then you say I also detail the VA crews to commit without firefighting media and breaking in kit yeah because we didn't have enough of this so did you does that mean that you're sending firefighters up into the
01:06:57 you're sending firefighters up into the building without without warwick they're
01:07:01 far for the equipment specifically branches very early on and I remember at one point I remembered a moment very clearly and late about eight or nine
01:07:13 clearly and late about eight or nine fresh the area whereas on the balcony and I was talking to him watch manager Watson yes and I looked along and I said okay you got all the equipment where are
01:07:24 okay you got all the equipment where are the branches he said we don't have any left and the pole I'm sorry there was so many calls come in for rescue that I made the decision I said I can't wait any longer we have to commit
01:07:36 any longer we have to commit do you remember whether any firefighters were taking VA sets up for residents to we're on the way you don't know that no okay well it did tell the firefighters
01:07:48 okay well it did tell the firefighters because one did I yeah challenged me and rightly so about not taking firefighting kiddo upwards he probably didn't know that the assert the circumstances that we were in at that time like to set in
01:08:00 we were in at that time like to set in there was a lot of equipment abandoned throughout the building by other crews initial crews dropped their kids everywhere right and to use that right I see and was this dropped kit is that on
01:08:12 see and was this dropped kit is that on the stairwell yeah and he lobbies in the stairwell I probably made more than merely in the lobbies right okay and did that assist or not assist the party
01:08:23 that assist or not assist the party salute okay mr. Ricky visitor I invite us all ski five minutes more questions thanks glad you asked thank you I can see the
01:08:36 glad you asked thank you I can see the clock and you and you've got I just want to talk about what happened when station manager Walt Andy walls firm came to the bridgehead yeah in the middle of page 12 you you
01:08:48 yeah in the middle of page 12 you you say a station manager then arrived at the bridgehead well let me just give me just take a step back you say crews began reporting that it was zero visibility in extremely hot and they were unable to determine floor or flat
01:09:00 were unable to determine floor or flat numbers light smoke was now apparent in the vicinity of our bridgehead when did the light smoke appear in the visit vicinity of the bridgehead you described earlier boys running indoors wrong thing it wasn't it wasn't
01:09:11 wrong thing it wasn't it wasn't permanent
01:09:12 permanent right and then you say station manager then arrived at the bridgehead and said to me he was taking over the last who was in charge I didn't know he was at the time but I now nervous station manager Andy Wharton i briefed
01:09:25 station manager Andy Wharton i briefed him the riders in charge then you say we had a robust discussion he stayed there only a short time then we left and we didn't see him again no I've read that all to you because there's a number of questions first of all you say you had a
01:09:37 questions first of all you say you had a robust discussion with him can you can you explain what the discussion was about not entirely but he felt that he appeared agitated and he wasn't calm right
01:09:49 he wasn't calm right I wanted to keep calm control of the bridge heads I believe he said that he wanted people to go downstairs we had in
01:10:05 wanted people to go downstairs we had in there at that time rescue is going on my judgment was that we should stay put and
01:10:16 judgment was that we should stay put and I still had tea with him and I said that I was insurance even though he said I don't even see the rank to me it wasn't it wasn't an arrogance as such but I just mean firmly telling him they were standing there what did you say to him
01:10:28 standing there what did you say to him do you remember I'm the charger Richard yes who's in charge of bridges like I am okay did you did you say anything to him about the statehood policy no right
01:10:41 about the statehood policy no right did you say anything to him about what tactics were being adopted by way of search and rescue inside the building do you remember what information you were
01:10:52 you remember what information you were able to give to station manager Walton about the process you had in place of the bridge I just told me at much of the left history calls did you tell him what was did you did you give him an impression of how successful some of the
01:11:03 impression of how successful some of the deployments would be no but I assumed that he would know that we were carrying our rescues right I just him for granted I knew he would
01:11:15 I just him for granted I knew he would be there have been appraised that elsewhere okay in terms of timing that let me see if I can get the timing of this Walton does he come to do you have this discussion
01:11:26 he come to do you have this discussion with him prior to your discussion with group manager Welch yes I see and do you remember whether the discussion you've had with Walton was prior to the pumps
01:11:37 had with Walton was prior to the pumps being made 14 when Tom's made 40 pumps were made 40 at o2
01:11:48 were made 40 at o2 but he go to a fool yeah I thought would have been before us right before it this
01:12:00 have been before us right before it this need you with that let me just get up get up salute me got some authority on that
01:12:12 yeah well yes unfortunately and the short incident log says a-two a-three make pumps 25 now that's clearly a
01:12:23 make pumps 25 now that's clearly a mistake but that's about the time when pumps were made 40 according to another locally I wasn't made aware that was made pumps party right I was far far too involved in what we were doing in the
01:12:35 involved in what we were doing in the Torah okay all right but it was at any rate it was before you say you had your discussion with group manager well shuttle written can be a in fact I can
01:12:46 shuttle written can be a in fact I can tell you that the discussions with wheatmadge words was quite soon after a discussion with stage major Wharton very soon after was written about five minutes right
01:13:01 and you say he left after a short time do you know what he went off to do I don't okay he was busy he was busy went to rice he basically has left you doing
01:13:12 to rice he basically has left you doing what you were doing yes I see
01:13:20 did you know that he went off to manage the queue of BA wearers on the Balrog hidden did you have any ongoing connectional role with Andy Wilson after dark Arden did you have any ongoing
01:13:31 dark Arden did you have any ongoing connection or role to play with Andy walls and after he left you right
01:13:46 and similarly once group manager Welch had left you after the initial conversation of our easy VA yeah did did he just leave you to carry on with what you were doing
01:13:57 you were doing he let me carry on though he was doing but he kept coming back he came back the both after that right I came back to and I got some but moving the bridgehead up hard for that and did
01:14:09 the bridgehead up hard for that and did he then become bridgehead commander well I'm assuming if you're a forest sector commander you're charging the Bridger but I continued doing what I was doing
01:14:21 but I continued doing what I was doing the bridgehead he would come back occasionally was there a time when group manager Welch and a man called Patrick Goulbourne took over at the bridgehead and I say what happened I suggested to
01:14:34 and I say what happened I suggested to the magic work so we could move the bridgehead up farther right and he said okay and I said what I would do is over
01:14:46 okay and I said what I would do is over there reckon over with another command reception from Hammersmith to see the boy look at the viability above the second floor so we went to the third and fourth and tried to over 50 the fifth
01:14:57 fourth and tried to over 50 the fifth was a knoll or the fort had by the fort was on fire so we couldn't use as a breach as a but not be had a lot of black rollin smokiness so we went to the third floor and the third floor look
01:15:12 third floor and the third floor look okay so I went back to the manual Welch right and then he I said we can do this we can we can put it there and he said okay and then blue manager Goldberg and
01:15:23 okay and then blue manager Goldberg and a station manager cook came up to the third floor with me right I supposed to verify my judgment and they acted in the senior management and that's how that
01:15:35 senior management and that's how that was established and wife's we were there we and as station magical proceeded forest above the guidance call on his on his air wave radio from
01:15:47 his air wave radio from start coming from the third floor right okay we view good pointless but that would be a as good a point as any right yes thank you very much I'm done mr.
01:15:58 yes thank you very much I'm done mr. Keith we're gonna stop there for the afternoon
01:15:59 afternoon okay sorry before I let you go away just gotta sort something out mr. minute I take it you've got a few more questions tonight cause I have a few more questions continuing on the theme we've just been
01:16:11 continuing on the theme we've just been on just to try to coat that up a bit more but but but not much more off after that right and I think I mean if you I mean I think in terms of time I don't want to be more than a lot of 30 minutes
01:16:23 want to be more than a lot of 30 minutes with this just with mr. Keith well mr. kief given us a lot of very useful evidence already but as you heard mr. Meyer
01:16:31 mr. Meyer he's not quite satisfied he'd like to ask you about a few other things can I tell you to come back on Monday morning oh it's fine these are long days I think we'll start at 10 o'clock on
01:16:42 I think we'll start at 10 o'clock on Mondays so could you be here ready to resume at 10 o'clock and although I'm sure a lot of people would like to talk to you about what's been going on and so on can you any to remember not to talk
01:16:53 on can you any to remember not to talk or evidence or circumstances and if you'd like to give the after I look forward to seeing you on Monday morning thank you sir thank you very much thank you
01:17:09 now mr. millet is there anything else we need to deal with mr. Chanin I can't think of anything at the moment no there isn't right thank you very much thank you very much thank you but we'll
01:17:20 thank you very much thank you but we'll stop there for the day I'm sorry it's been a rather warm day I've tried to improve the temperature without a great deal of success as you will have realized but I hope perhaps we can do
01:17:31 realized but I hope perhaps we can do better next week anyway I look forward to seeing you all on Monday morning at 10 o'clock thank you
01:17:47 you