Stuart Priestley, RBKC's Chief Community Safety Officer and Council Silver on 14-16 June 2017, gives evidence about the borough's emergency response, including failures in deployment, communication, and the decision not to activate London Gold mutual aid immediately.
00:00:21 so
00:00:32 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing
00:00:35 hearing today we're going to hear evidence from more of those who are involved in the response of the council to the disaster yes mr keating good morning mr chairman good morning members of panel could i call short
00:00:47 members of panel could i call short priestly please thank you
00:00:55 good morning mr priestly good morning no i gather you're going to affirm is that right that's correct well the words are there on the screen would you read them out please yes i do solemnly and sincerely and truly declare and affirm
00:01:07 sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence that i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much do sit down and make yourself comfortable thank you
00:01:21 good morning mr pc thank you very much for attending today and assisting the inquiry with his investigations just a few introductory matters as we say to all witnesses but just to perhaps assist you and first of all audibility
00:01:34 assist you and first of all audibility um i will keep my voice up any difficulties hearing me please do let me know
00:01:38 know and secondly if you could reciprocate and keep your voice up as well so that your
00:01:43 your evidence can be captured by the transcriber at any stage if anything i ask is unclear just just let me know and i'm sure we can rephrase that and secondly if i ask you to avoid um
00:01:54 and secondly if i ask you to avoid um shaking or nodding your head because it's not captured by the transcriber also
00:01:59 also and lastly at any stage if you need a break for any reason at any stage just let us know and i'm sure we can accommodate that is that okay that's fine thank you very much i'm just turning into your evidence again a few
00:02:10 turning into your evidence again a few former matters you've provided three witness statements to inquiry in relation to this aftermath module and they will appear on the screen first could we go to obk triple zero three
00:02:22 could we go to obk triple zero three five six seven two please
00:02:27 and this is a statement stated the 28th of january and if you could go to page fourteen please we see
00:02:34 we see um your name and the date and can you confirm that your signature that's correct
00:02:39 correct thank you if we can move to your second statement which is dated 26 to june 2020 that's obk triple zero five eight two six five please
00:02:50 please again we can see that it's labeled second witness statement and again if you could go to page 13 please and the bottom of the page
00:02:59 the page and if you could confirm that's your signature please that's correct and finally your third statement obk triple zero six eight zero seven three
00:03:10 that's dated the third in november 2021
00:03:14 2021 described as supplementary with statements and we could go to page five please
00:03:19 please we can see the date and again can you confirm that's your signature that's correct excellence and have you had the opportunity to read those statements recently yes i have and can you confirm that their contents are true
00:03:30 you confirm that their contents are true to the best of your knowledge yes they are thank you very much episode please just turn briefly to background and qualifications which are set out in your witness statements
00:03:41 set out in your witness statements um i'd like to ask you a few questions about your role within the royal borough of kensington and chelsea or bkc and is it right that you joined there in 2002 as part of their community safety
00:03:52 2002 as part of their community safety team
00:03:53 team that's correct and in november 2014 you became the chief community safety officer is that right that's right and in essence you would work within that organization and with external partners and residents to
00:04:04 with external partners and residents to reduce crime and anti-social behavior that's correct yes and at that time you reported to tony redpath that's right and he was a director of strategy and local services yes
00:04:16 local services yes and through your role you had responsibility for managing david curry is that correct that is correct and he was the contingency planning manager within the contingency planning unit yes
00:04:29 and in relation to those that unit those plans is it right that in relation to drafting of any plans contingency management plans that was something that you had no dealings with and it was done
00:04:41 you had no dealings with and it was done by david curry and his team that's correct the the expertise lay with david and with his team so i relied on their subject matter
00:04:52 i relied on their subject matter expertise in the drafting of plans in terms of your role um
00:04:59 um when becoming chief community safety officer in november 2014 and having the contingency management team fall under your
00:05:07 your umbrella of leadership did you have any background or experience in contingency planning prior to
00:05:15 to then no none
00:05:18 is it right that as you set out your statements that you were trained as a council silver in july 2015. that's correct
00:05:26 correct and we've heard already that the role of council silver is effectively the tactical manager of the council response in an incident is that right that's yes that's correct
00:05:37 is that right that's yes that's correct we've heard a few different terms for council silver but is it the same that equates to the borough emergency controller yes
00:05:45 yes but perhaps we could use council silver going forward is that okay yeah that's fine
00:05:51 fine you also outline in your statements two training sessions you undertook in late 2015 for that role of council silver i could ask this did you have any specific training as to how the borough
00:06:03 specific training as to how the borough emergency control center operated
00:06:08 as part of the briefing of council silver i was orientated around the functions of the borough emergency control center and how it would operate
00:06:20 and how it would operate so that was that was included in the briefing the original training stroke briefing session i had with
00:06:28 with uh keith robbins um in i think that was 2015. correct yes so this orientation as to how a beck
00:06:39 yes so this orientation as to how a beck would operate but was there any specific training in relation to the bec that you received
00:06:43 received no not specific to the back so there's a couple of um events you mentioned in 2015 in your statement as to your training as to council silver
00:06:55 to your training as to council silver yes was that the extent of your training prior to june 2017 for the role of council silver that's correct
00:07:07 did you have any training in the london resilience partnership plans such as the london strategic coordination protocol or the london humanitarian assistance plan
00:07:18 plan not training no had your awareness of those prior to june 2017 i i will i was aware of their existence
00:07:27 existence i think i'd looked at them in the past um prior to june 20 2014 um
00:07:38 um but i'd i couldn't i couldn't say that i had a detailed understanding and anything like a detailed understanding of those plans and did you consider that you had
00:07:49 and did you consider that you had sufficient training to undertake the role of council silver as of june 2017 as the as of june 2017 yes and looking back now with the the
00:08:01 and looking back now with the the benefit of hindsight do you do you think you had sufficient training of council silver
00:08:07 silver um
00:08:10 my understanding is that that that council silver role has developed since then
00:08:17 then and i think the that the
00:08:21 that the uh
00:08:22 uh the training that the local authority provides in relation now to council silver is remarkably different to the training that i received so i
00:08:34 to the training that i received so i think the trainer i think it it's it's considerably different now the level of training the detail that's provided than the training that i had experienced
00:08:45 than the training that i had experienced at the time
00:08:48 i'm going to move on to a topic regarding training in a little bit more detail if i may were any concerns expressed to you from within the contingency plan planning unit regarding the sufficiency
00:09:02 planning unit regarding the sufficiency of training undertaken by all bkc in relation to the exercising of the contingency management plan
00:09:14 concerns were expressed that there were not sufficient number of staff that were recruited into emergency roles
00:09:28 that were recruited into emergency roles so that that was a that was a that was a concern which was um relayed to me um
00:09:37 um specifically in regards to training i don't recall any concerns being flagged around the training but i think they are those two areas are links the kind of staff that
00:09:49 areas are links the kind of staff that you would
00:09:51 you would that you would recruit and then you would sort of train up for following that
00:09:56 that we've heard um evidence regarding concerns expressed regarding significant shortage of staff
00:10:04 staff who are experienced and trained yes in emergency planning and work is that correct that's correct yes i'm just regarding the sufficiency of exercise or training
00:10:17 sufficiency of exercise or training undertaken perhaps if i show you a document that might assist you if we could go to obk triple zero five eight one seven zero please
00:10:29 and this is a statement from rebecca blackburn
00:10:33 blackburn if we could go please to page nine
00:10:39 and if we look at paragraph 2.21 please
00:10:45 and if you could scroll down slightly thank you
00:10:50 and this is where just to give some context rebecca blackburn was asked some questions regarding raising the issue as to training with her superiors and concerns yeah
00:11:01 her superiors and concerns yeah and the answer here is to give you the opportunity of this assist your recollection she sets out in her statement of paragraph 2.21 i raised the issue verbally with obk director strategy
00:11:12 verbally with obk director strategy local services tony redpan stuart priestley and stuart priestley's predecessor on i am unable to recall the name of stewart priestley's predecessor i recall that i raised the matter which
00:11:23 i recall that i raised the matter which stuart priestley quite soon after he assumed office i'm otherwise unable to recall specifically when these occasions would have been
00:11:31 have been she then goes on i informed all three of them of my concerns about the failure to conduct sufficient large-scale emergency evacuation plans outside of the llag lfb london local
00:11:43 outside of the llag lfb london local authority training and exercising program to test the contingency management plan and my doubts that contingency planning manager david curry would have been able to cope
00:11:53 to cope let's deal with the first part of paragraph two points two two regarding those concerns regarding conducting sufficient large-scale emergency plans does that age a recollection
00:12:15 i can't say i have a recollection of
00:12:21 the concerns about training being
00:12:27 specific to a large-scale emergency evacuation my memory is that there were concerns that we didn't have enough staff
00:12:41 who were trained to be able to fill the emergency roles i'm afraid and i'm i'm doing my best to think i cannot recall
00:12:54 doing my best to think i cannot recall that that being linked to a large-scale emergency evacuation
00:13:01 but because i'm unable to oh no
00:13:05 oh no i'm not saying that didn't happen
00:13:08 let's deal with the last part of paragraph 2.22 was there any concerns raised by rebecca blackburn with you and regarding her doubts as to david curry being able to cope
00:13:22 um
00:13:26 there were on several occasions concerns raised by rebecca about david's performance
00:13:38 um and about
00:13:44 differences of opinion i'd
00:13:48 different professional differences of opinion um
00:13:55 um i don't recall anything about his ability to cope i think
00:14:02 i think that rebecca
00:14:05 uh was concerned about a number of things to do with david and i think there was a there was a um
00:14:16 had a poor relationship they didn't get on there was a there was a personality clash and there was a different sort of professional opinion at times and
00:14:25 and um
00:14:27 um but i don't recall i don't recall anything about david's ability to cope
00:14:36 you allude to an issue between david curry and one of his members of staff in your statement yes
00:14:43 yes not regarding having issues as to the working relationship was that rebecca blackburn that's correct okay i'm going to move on please to your operational experience you've helped us with your training as council
00:14:55 helped us with your training as council silver
00:14:57 silver prior to
00:14:58 prior to june 2017 did you have any experience of performing the role of council silver in emergency no
00:15:09 and with no background in this field or experience in in this field and without the back training we discussed
00:15:18 discussed and did you consider that you were equipped to carry out that role of council silver on the 14th of june 2017. yes i do
00:15:29 yes i do you said yes i do so even now looking back do you do did you do you consider that you were equipped to deal with matters on the 14th um
00:15:41 14th um based on on the standards of training and briefing
00:15:48 um i'd undertaken the training and the briefing i participated in
00:15:55 in exercises
00:15:57 exercises i participated as a council silver within an exercise so i think given the given i suppose i wanted better description the standards of the time
00:16:10 description the standards of the time or certainly the standards within that authority at that time that would indicate that i was equipped to perform that silver role on that time
00:16:23 on that time and asking the question slightly differently did you feel comfortable in carrying out that juicy on the 14th of june bear in mind experience and training you had
00:16:34 and training you had no and why did you not feel comfortable i was inexperienced
00:16:42 that was the first incident
00:16:46 incident i'd ever been involved in in response
00:16:52 i'm going to move on now to events on the 14th of june and
00:16:56 and [Music]
00:16:57 [Music] the first heading really would be the notification of the incident and setting up the back yeah that's okay and you've helpfully set this out in your statement and with the benefit of
00:17:10 your statement and with the benefit of your log
00:17:11 your log which you prepared a few days after the event isn't that correct which we'll touch upon in due course so the first reference you make is is around
00:17:22 reference you make is is around paragraph 14 of your statement you say at around three o'clock you receive the first notification of the fire from david curry in a telephone call is that right that's correct and what did he say to you
00:17:34 to you he said that there was a fire and a tower block
00:17:40 he said that the fire brigade to present he discharged a center lelo
00:17:48 and he said
00:17:51 said i asked him what what i should do and he said at the moment i should just just wait okay perhaps we could open up paragraph
00:18:02 okay perhaps we could open up paragraph 14 of your first statement please that's obk triple zero three five six seven two page four please thank you
00:18:14 so we the first line has we've just touched upon and if we move down to four lines down he said it was unclear at this point what the situation was you say he did not say that it was a
00:18:25 you say he did not say that it was a major incident it was agreed between us that i would monitor the situation from home until further information was available
00:18:33 available is that correct that's correct yes
00:18:39 and after that phone call is it the case that you then logged on to your work email you were awake you logged onto your work email and you read an email sent at o220 from a former fire borough
00:18:51 sent at o220 from a former fire borough commander which stated that you have a massive fire grenfell tower and included photographs of the fire that's correct and
00:19:01 and is it the case that once you receive that email and accessed that material and what did you do then i um
00:19:10 i um emailed that to david
00:19:16 and suggested i think in the email
00:19:21 that this was significant and it needed a significant response and i
00:19:29 i can't recall the detail of the email um
00:19:34 but i sort of i gave him to believe that um
00:19:39 um i was i said to him that um that i needed to go into the back i think i think it was a in that email or around that time that it was a
00:19:51 around that time that it was a recognition i recognized that it was more significant than he's given me the impression or that he had the impression at that time let me assist you in relation to this we've got paragraph 16 of your statement
00:20:03 we've got paragraph 16 of your statement which is there and you indicates that it was apparent from email that was a fire was large in nature
00:20:10 nature and that we should initiate our processes to establish the beck in a town hall with appropriate staffing arrangements i immediately called david but could not get through 3 10 am i forwarded rob's email to david
00:20:23 3 10 am i forwarded rob's email to david stating david can you call me back i think we need to contact all now including the councillors need to chat is that correct that's correct
00:20:36 so we know that from other evidence david curry had been informed at o2 21 of the fire and emergency and did you think that mr curry from your initial contacts had appreciated
00:20:48 your initial contacts had appreciated the seriousness of the fire not in my initial contact with him now
00:20:57 you go on your statements paragraph 19 we don't need to look at us that you made you made a number of attempts to call mr curry and perhaps understandably his line was again engaged
00:21:09 again engaged and at some time perhaps around 3 30 3 45 you got in contact with him again is that correct that's correct and what was discussed when you got in contact with him for that second occasion
00:21:21 him for that second occasion i think the
00:21:25 the contents of the email really that we
00:21:29 we should
00:21:31 should um
00:21:32 um enact the
00:21:34 enact the planned contingency plan and call in staff to the town hall and work to transfer the back from mr
00:21:45 and work to transfer the back from mr kerry
00:21:46 kerry from his home and from him into the town hall and that senior managers and back emergency staff should be contacted and advised to go to the town
00:21:58 contacted and advised to go to the town hall
00:21:59 hall and that i would get ready
00:22:04 get ready i think i said one of my emails i said i'd draw my logo jump in the shower get ready call a taxi and i would journey to the town hall
00:22:16 journey to the town hall so you're describing a full activation of the plan and an opening of the beck in the town hall that's correct and it may be obvious what was the rationale for that decision at 3 30 in the morning
00:22:30 the email from rob davis
00:22:33 rob davis which said you have a massive fire and the photographs were quite shocking and upsetting
00:22:44 you set out your statement that you arrived at the town hall at approximately or 0 4 38 i say approximately you're actually quite specific i think you've checked records and how long did it take you to access
00:22:55 and how long did it take you to access and set up the beck when you were at the town hall from 438 onwards so
00:23:02 so the reason why it's 4.38 is because i had a i took an uber taxi and i give you a precise timing of when you when you start and finish so i got there
00:23:13 start and finish so i got there um
00:23:14 um at that precise time i then had the council building the council town hall is open 24 hours
00:23:25 hall is open 24 hours but i had difficulties i i was able to get in and there was a chap behind the reception desk i signed in i explained that um
00:23:38 i signed in i explained that um it's very unusual for someone to attend the town hall in the very early hours of the morning you'll appreciate i explained that i was the first and the others would be coming and i explained that we needed to that
00:23:50 and i explained that we needed to that we would be based within uh the holland room which is a room in the basement which is where which is a specific room which can be configured to
00:24:01 specific room which can be configured to be the borough emergency control center
00:24:05 i then wanted to get um
00:24:08 um [Music]
00:24:10 [Music] information or
00:24:15 i think it was my laptop i i'm slightly confused because i i can't i think i may have logged on to my work system using my home laptop
00:24:27 home laptop when i got into the town hall i needed to go
00:24:31 to go to my locker on the first floor to retrieve my work proper work laptop i think that that's my memory of that
00:24:42 i think that that's my memory of that and i had issues getting onto the first floor we have a you know a fob system so there was a bit of touring and
00:24:53 so there was a bit of touring and throwing getting up getting that and then when i got to the holland room i couldn't get in the kind of the freedoms and flexibilities that my past gave me during the day it didn't
00:25:04 past gave me during the day it didn't give me at night and i thought it would give me so there's a bit of kind of touring and throwing and then i arrive at the holland room and i can gain access to the holland room but what i can't do
00:25:18 room but what i can't do is gain access to the cupboard which i think is documented which then gives you access to these devices
00:25:26 devices which allow the desk to rise which gives you access to the telephones and the it and the suite of paper documents that one might need so sort of got that farm
00:25:38 one might need so sort of got that farm was able unable to go any further so an important aspect to activates the beck is to open the cupboards to um operate and the the computers
00:25:50 um operate and the the computers and what was the difficulty in relation to
00:25:53 to getting the key to the cupboard so i should just say that at this point the beck is is being operated from david
00:26:05 the beck is is being operated from david carey's
00:26:07 carey's home
00:26:09 home so the back as you'll appreciate is kind of concept it's a you know understandable back piece and um uh
00:26:18 uh so the difficult sorry could you ask the question again it's terribly i was just really focusing on what you've set out that you weren't really able to
00:26:31 really able to have the beck in a town hall and accessing the holiday room cupboards that was a delay in this because you couldn't access the key yes just really focusing on that what was the difficulty
00:26:42 focusing on that what was the difficulty in accessing the key oh that it was um the key was at supposed to be at the reception the council reception they couldn't find
00:26:54 the council reception they couldn't find it
00:26:56 and did you ever get to the bottom of where the key was no never no um
00:27:03 um as a result of this difficulty is it the case that at 5 25 that you emailed david curry to say that you could not open the cupboard and ask them to come to the town hall
00:27:16 town hall pdq
00:27:17 pdq that's correct and is it the case that because there wasn't a key look that could be located within the town hall you have to wait for david carey to arrive with a key
00:27:29 carey to arrive with a key close at six o'clock that's correct and just out of interest was the key ever located not to my knowledge it's just gone missing yes yes all right thank you
00:27:44 so in terms of opening the the back which i know is a concept but opening the back within a town hall with that greater infrastructure there was a delay of about an hour an
00:27:56 there was a delay of about an hour an hour and a quarter because of not being able to access the key is that fair yes it is
00:28:03 yes it is but for context what i would add to that is
00:28:08 is you will only have one back operating at any one time so
00:28:15 so we were
00:28:16 we were reliant on david stopping being the back and the back transferring to the town hall um and in order for that to be the case
00:28:27 um and in order for that to be the case we would sort of need him to physically be be there to kind of do that handover really
00:28:33 really so i think my concern in not having the back
00:28:40 the holland room configured was that that handover was slightly delayed when when mr kerry arrived at the
00:28:51 arrived at the town hall
00:28:53 town hall let's move slightly further along in the timeline to when mr curry arrives and keys obtains beck
00:29:02 beck opens in the hollowed room computers are accessed was there any initial i.t issues with some of the beck systems which prevented people logging on
00:29:13 on i wasn't aware of that i'm aware that was came up in evidence yesterday yes but i have no recollection of that
00:29:23 of that specifically the ils the instant logging system was it can you any recollection now at the beginning people having difficulty logging on no i don't i don't have any recollection of that now
00:29:36 i'm gonna move on now to a different topic which is um something you refer to your statements regarding an initial meeting perhaps not in a formal sense but a meeting with mr holgates and others
00:29:49 meeting with mr holgates and others and you states that between 6 30 and 7 o'clock you had a meeting with david curry nicholas holgates laura johnson and robert black at paragraph 24 of your statement do you
00:30:00 at paragraph 24 of your statement do you recall that yes um can you assist whether that statement whether that meeting forgive me took place before or after the 630
00:30:11 place before or after the 630 scg strategic coordination group call
00:30:26 i can't recall could you help me what did i say in my log did i you say it's between 6 30 and 7 so it's not entirely clear okay and but we can
00:30:37 not entirely clear okay and but we can come back to need be just due of any recollection now we know that there was a that you and david curry attended the 630 scg which would have taken place for a period of time i
00:30:49 a period of time i think it was before that meeting let's focus on the meeting which you think may have been before 6 30 seg
00:31:00 30 seg um
00:31:03 did david curry provide you with a an update
00:31:06 update or provide mr hall given an update at this meeting yes that's my my memory yes what did he say i think he fed back what he knew
00:31:18 i think he fed back what he knew in regards the the information that had been provided to him by the laylos and the
00:31:27 and the response
00:31:28 response and mr kerry advised him of
00:31:33 of the
00:31:35 the mutual aid arrangements and the support that was available to him
00:31:44 let's perhaps assist you because it says some time ago and open up paragraph 24 of your statement
00:31:52 first statement please thank you
00:31:56 and we've seen the first two three lines what you've just said that there was an update provided by david curry that's the water being fed back to the back from the onside layla's
00:32:07 back from the onside layla's i'm gonna
00:32:09 i'm gonna not read it all but give aspects to it we then we then see nicholas that's mr holgate is that correct yes advised that he's spoken to a leader and that we had a blank
00:32:20 a leader and that we had a blank checkbook to fund anything that we required in response to the fire nicholas confirmed that priority should be to offer support it was directly affected food shelter clothing money
00:32:31 affected food shelter clothing money emotional support emergency a combination of those displaced and then this is what you mentioned just a moment ago david curry advised nicholas holgate
00:32:42 nicholas holgate of the mutual aid agreement via london gold and of the other local authorities ceos who could support him that was the advice given can you help anymore with the nature of the advice
00:32:54 anymore with the nature of the advice that david carey gave
00:33:02 i think it it was his advice was very brief and factual and i think it's covered in in this in this statement he advised mr holgate of the sources of support to
00:33:17 mr holgate of the sources of support to him
00:33:18 him and the mutual aid arrangements under local london local authority gold this is quite a brief meeting
00:33:28 let's go to your second statement but you're asked further questions by the inquiry in writing about this and if we could look at your second sting which is obk triple zero five eight two six five please
00:33:42 five eight two six five please and paragraph five point one please
00:33:49 okay
00:33:54 so entry 6 30 that's the time of exhibit sp1 that's your log which you did two or three days after the incident which is referred to a paragraph 24 of your statement that's what we just read
00:34:06 your statement that's what we just read a moment ago speaks to a meeting on the 14th of june where the activation of mutual aid was discussed and you're asked please provide further detail as the natured advice and mutual aid given by david curry specifically
00:34:17 aid given by david curry specifically did mr carry advise any action to be taken
00:34:22 taken and your response in the statement is the emergency log sheets produced by david curry covering the early hours of morning 14 of june references the meeting at 10 o'clock attended by david curry
00:34:35 at 10 o'clock attended by david curry laura johnson robert black and you produce that log as exhibit sp2 and
00:34:42 and within the action response outcome column is a corresponding entry we don't need to go to log just here because you've reproduced it helpfully just pausing for a moment so we're
00:34:53 just pausing for a moment so we're asking you about the meeting which you believe is around 6 30 perhaps before the 6 30 scg and when being asked about this in your second statement you
00:35:04 second statement you produce a log in relation to a meeting which mr curry believed took place at 10 o'clock
00:35:09 o'clock are you talking about the same meeting yeah yes okay and again we don't need to go to the log but this is what you
00:35:18 you mention your second statement regarding what david curry said this incident is bigger than any one local authority in london can manage consideration should be given to asking
00:35:29 consideration should be given to asking for mutual aid for the beck there are people who could support nicholas holgate and the gold group including john baradel ellen eleanor kelly andrew meek london's expert on
00:35:40 kelly andrew meek london's expert on humanitarian assistance and it goes overleaf to alistair airs if i'm pronouncing that correctly that's right yes
00:35:48 right yes um so holding there for a moment in terms of the is that correct you've mentioned that in your second statement was that said this incident is bigger than any one local authority in london can manage it was yes
00:36:02 and what was nicholas holgate's response to this
00:36:06 to this stark advice that this was an incident bigger than any one local authority in london can manage i
00:36:16 i don't recall him
00:36:18 him responding directly to that statement
00:36:29 well if we can go back to paragraph 24 of your first statement please it's obk triple zero three five six seven two thank you
00:36:45 i'm just gonna move between a few documents if you forgive me for a moment so your first statement is obk triple zero three five six seven which is the stair and we can move please to power f24 again
00:37:01 excellent thank you so we
00:37:05 so we we were midway through that document where we say david advise nicholas and the mutual aid
00:37:11 and the next sentence is nicholas holgate indicate that the decision to invoke london gold mutual aid would be considered when the council's response was deemed insufficient
00:37:25 does that assist your recollection that's what you said in your first statement it does actually yes and is that exactly what he said that he the decision to invoke would be considered when the council's response was deemed insufficient i don't know
00:37:37 was deemed insufficient i don't know that those are his exact words
00:37:42 but that's the sense i had okay
00:37:46 okay the documents we've looked at your first statement was made some time after the second statement even later yes let's go to your most contemporaneous document which is your log and that's rpk triple
00:37:59 which is your log and that's rpk triple zero one three three one eight
00:38:07 okay this is the log which you mentioned your statements produced between the 16th and 18th of june based upon your recollection and notes you made on the 14th of june is that correct that's correct right
00:38:19 correct right so if we scroll down and the bottom of the page is 6 6 30. this is what you say meeting with robert black laura johnson nicholas holgates david bowie had an update
00:38:33 advisor to scale tragedy i'm going to move to the next page
00:38:40 david advised nicholas in mutual aid arrangements available via lag in our neighboring boroughs nicholas holgate stated that looks like we can't cope
00:38:52 that looks like we can't cope the conversation of mutual aid at that point ceased is that age or recollection it does yes so a few days after this incident you
00:39:04 so a few days after this incident you note it down from your notes that when
00:39:07 when david curry gave this advice that the response from the chief executive before bkc nicholas holgate was that looks like we can't cope
00:39:19 was that looks like we can't cope that's correct but if i may do yes please
00:39:25 nicholas was also at pains to point out that mutual aid was available from the neighboring boroughs
00:39:36 from the neighboring boroughs and that he had already spoken to the neighboring our chief executives and
00:39:44 and they've made available any resources that council required within its response
00:39:51 so he was he had
00:39:54 he had made that point in that meeting that we could you know in our response draw on the neighboring boroughs mutual aid
00:40:04 aid mutual aid arrangements
00:40:11 did it go further than that though did it was it a position actually that there was a concern at the most senior level of all bkc that's to seek outside help
00:40:22 of all bkc that's to seek outside help at that stage would look like a sign of weakness or an inability to cope
00:40:30 i don't know the answer to that question because all was said was that one sentence that
00:40:40 that struck me
00:40:42 struck me that's why i recorded it stayed in my memory that's why i've written it here there's no broader contextual conversation that occurred in that meeting
00:40:53 in that meeting or outside of that meeting in the days that followed along those lines that i was involved in
00:41:03 in terms of the the length of this meeting it was short isn't that correct that's correct you've mentioned this in your second statement and in relation to the aspect in discussing mutual aid you
00:41:14 the aspect in discussing mutual aid you mentioned it was two or three minutes in duration yes
00:41:20 but from your perspective you've got an area which you are not an expert in your reliance on david curry isn't that correct that is correct you've got no operational experience as a council silver
00:41:32 silver you've seen photographs and you're aware this is a very serious incident isn't that correct that is correct you're in the room with your chief executive and your contingency
00:41:43 executive and your contingency management expert for want of a better word and he says this is too big for any one local authority to cope with
00:41:54 for any one local authority to cope with what did you think when the response from your chief executive was um we'll continue as we are in effect
00:42:05 um we'll continue as we are in effect my thoughts were that we would
00:42:12 we would respond using the resources of the council and our neighboring boroughs
00:42:21 in the first instance
00:42:25 yeah i'm going to move on in a moment but the last question in relation to this is this is that you said that you were
00:42:31 were struck by the comment that's why you wrote it down yes you yourself as you said in your statement didn't contribute to this discussion that's right
00:42:44 that's right but were you concerned by this discourse the advice from david curry and the response from
00:42:52 from nicholas holgate
00:43:00 i don't think i was concerned
00:43:04 how would you describe how you're feeling
00:43:07 feeling i felt that that was that was the direction
00:43:12 direction and that
00:43:16 we would get on with the get on with the job in hand with the resources that we had
00:43:23 had now i'm pausing because
00:43:30 i have to think back to
00:43:34 to my kind of knowledge around
00:43:38 around london local authority gold and those processes and what that was at that time and i i i've now my my knowledge is significant
00:43:49 my my knowledge is significant significantly increased around this area and i've lots of experience of being a council silver but i have to try and go back and think about what i was thinking and what i was feeling in relation to that
00:44:00 that at that time and what i wasn't thinking was
00:44:07 was this is a massive mistake that's being made
00:44:12 nicholas nicholas judgment is wrong i wasn't thinking that
00:44:20 i was thinking we've received direction we're going to respond to this within the resources of the council and our neighboring boroughs
00:44:33 was there a clear understanding in your mind of what activation of london local authority gold was at that time no i had an idea
00:44:47 that it was i think my idea at the time was quite loose that it would it would mean
00:44:54 additional resources from across london additional strategic leadership but the detail of that i didn't i didn't have a
00:45:04 have a strong sense of that
00:45:08 and finally in relations as you mentioned
00:45:10 mentioned you were
00:45:12 you were going to work to
00:45:14 to follow the direction which was given by your town clerk at that time yes ultimately a senior leader of the council was there
00:45:25 was there a deference to
00:45:28 to the town clerk and his view at that time
00:45:37 i can't speak for for others in the room there was a deference from me
00:45:44 certainly i um
00:45:51 i was not i was a i was middle manager i was a head of service
00:45:58 and i'd been in that role for a number of years but i was still learning
00:46:07 learning so i think that there was a a difference from me i can only speak for me
00:46:12 for me thank you i'm going to move on um to the the second scg strategic coordination group meeting which took place at 6 30. one took place at five o'clock
00:46:23 at five o'clock in the morning you'd confirm that you although you're on the minutes yeah you've confirmed in one of your later statements that you were not at that meeting and that was an error
00:46:33 an error is that correct that's correct so your first attendance um at one of these meetings was at 6 30. that's correct and
00:46:45 you'd been at the town hall a short while
00:46:48 while david curry had been the the beck the mobile bec for one of a better word and
00:46:57 and from the time of your attendance how do you consider your ability to contribute at that stage as to how or bkc were doing
00:47:05 doing very limited i didn't
00:47:09 i didn't i didn't contribute to that meeting i was there very much in listening mode so it was you and david curry um
00:47:20 so it was you and david curry um if you were there in listening mode did it follow that david curry was the person who was speaking on behalf of orbkc
00:47:27 orbkc uh yes i i didn't say anything in the 630 meeting or the 8 30 meeting at the 6 30 meeting david curry will still council silver
00:47:39 still council silver i'm going to move to that in a short while about the timing of council silver just sticking with this meeting for a moment if i may did you consider from that listening
00:47:51 did you consider from that listening mode you had at that meeting that david curry had sufficient situational awareness in relation to the rest center locations at that time
00:48:09 no not fully i think
00:48:13 i think if i may just by way of context and the inquiry will be aware that numerous spaces and places opened up
00:48:24 spaces and places opened up are more operating and delivering west centre functions in the morning and
00:48:32 and um
00:48:34 um i don't think that david
00:48:36 david had
00:48:38 had knowledge of all of all of those places
00:48:43 places let's open those minutes up for a moment it's mol
00:48:47 it's mol and it's six zeros one five please
00:48:55 we can see that there are the minutes there
00:48:57 there at one point two we can see that all bkc are in the process of consolidating their open res centers into only one which will be located at w11 1pz
00:49:11 which will be located at w11 1pz perhaps we can now move to paragraph 3.5 which is on the other page top leader page page 2.
00:49:21 and it's the same point but a little more detail full contact details to be shared asap and i mentioned that there's two lelos local authority liaison officers
00:49:32 local authority liaison officers on scene and they'll be relieved within the hour
00:49:37 the hour does it follow that that was an address provided by well let me ask it in in an open way can you recall who provided that address i can't recall who provided that address
00:49:48 i can't recall who provided that address or
00:49:50 or who stated that at that point the rest centers will be consolidated
00:49:58 we the postcode for w11 and another evidence indicates that this was saint mark's close children resource center do you recall that being mentioned in the early days in the 14th not at
00:50:10 early days in the 14th not at all
00:50:12 all and
00:50:14 and again you may have touched upon it but just for completeness do you know who made the decision to consolidate rest centers at that stage no
00:50:28 okay
00:50:32 in terms of the role of council silver you've been asked a number of questions in relation to that
00:50:39 to that position was that david curry was the council silver when he was at home and operating the back isn't that correct yes and then can you assist us at what stage
00:50:51 and then can you assist us at what stage did
00:50:52 did the role of council silver pass from david curry to you shortly after seven o'clock on around seven o'clock i sent an email
00:51:03 seven o'clock i sent an email at i think it's detailed 701 stating that the back was live in the holland room and that i was council silva
00:51:16 and that i was council silva following sending that email that's when i had a
00:51:19 i had a verbal handover from david
00:51:24 so this hour period where mr curry had arrived got the key set up the back had a meeting attended first scg david curry was council silver yes
00:51:38 scg david curry was council silver yes that's correct and was that something discussed
00:51:42 discussed amongst you or was that assumed by you that was assumed
00:51:48 assumed and my assumption was that when he provided me with the handover
00:51:54 handover i was at that point that i would take on the role of the council silva
00:52:02 and let's move on to the handover um at that stage we've had the first the second seg your first one at 6 30.
00:52:13 second seg your first one at 6 30. was there any further discussion regarding the numbers and locations of rest centers
00:52:21 yes in that handover there was there was some information about uh provided about rest centres and the locations of those rest centers should i assist you in relation to that
00:52:33 should i assist you in relation to that collect it and we can go to a log that's obk triple zero one three three one eight
00:52:39 one eight at page two please
00:52:46 thank you very much i was going to find the reference
00:52:53 you can see it's the second bottom
00:52:57 bottom the penultimate entry at 7 30. thank you there is a handover meeting from david to me brief update in regards situation on
00:53:08 brief update in regards situation on ground
00:53:10 ground rest centers obt rugby portobello trust horror club clement james center westway and other locations in the area such as small churches
00:53:20 churches little information as to who is present and none have been opened by the council's
00:53:25 council's emergency planning team process processes
00:53:28 processes is that correct that's correct we move on need for rest center managers to attend dissenters and provide management is that correct that's correct
00:53:41 is that correct that's correct and david advised that the lundenburg harassment film can provide a restaurant rest center manager
00:53:49 that's correct and then just while we have in front of us issue of insufficient number of bank officers discussed
00:53:56 discussed agreed we would seek volunteers from across the policy and partnership unit that's right so this is your log few days later derived from your notes
00:54:08 few days later derived from your notes and i just want to sort of unpick some of that's please
00:54:16 were you informed at that stage that there was no or bkc staff save those layla's which had been deployed to the rest centers
00:54:28 i was aware that that was the case so this is 7 30 8 o'clock and what was your view at that time that no or bk staff had been
00:54:41 no or bk staff had been deployed to the rest centers some five
00:54:46 some five five and a half hours after the incident so the council needed to deploy staff to those west centres
00:55:02 just one i'm going to ask a few more questions just regarding the detail of this in a moment but just dealing with handover and logs
00:55:11 and logs um
00:55:12 um you refer to a log you did after the event were you provided with a any log by mr curry that morning on the 14th of june
00:55:21 june no
00:55:22 no you know in duke horse that he had a handwritten note did he provide you with with that sir any detail in relation to that no were you aware that mr curry had on his
00:55:36 were you aware that mr curry had on his account set up a beck log on the computer system when he arrived sometime after six o'clock in the morning no i found out about that for the first time yesterday
00:55:48 for the first time yesterday and
00:55:51 in terms of the question regarding beck logs
00:55:55 beck logs and as you said this was your first incident
00:55:59 incident um operationally as a council silver and is it right that you you yourself when once you became council silver you didn't open the backlog i didn't know
00:56:11 didn't open the backlog i didn't know just help me with this if you would um mr priestley when um
00:56:15 um when you get into the computers in the in the back
00:56:21 does the existence of a log if one has been opened not show up in some form or other on the screen
00:56:30 screen i
00:56:31 i think that you would have my memory is that one would have to go and find that log i'd it wouldn't be the case that one would
00:56:42 would fire up the computer and the log would present itself on onto the screen you'd have to go into a file and fight and to access it i think mr
00:56:53 and fight and to access it i think mr kerry said yesterday that it was a share point produced um log so one would have to go to sharepoint in order to access that this
00:57:05 sharepoint in order to access that this would be my understanding all right thank you but it sounds as though no one actually went to see if there was a log
00:57:16 is that fair yes i think that's fair strikes me as slightly surprising but do you know why that was i think that
00:57:27 i think that in those first couple of hours the the um the back was established in the holland room
00:57:35 room it was phenomenally busy
00:57:40 there were lots of people going into that back there was lots of information coming into that back there was lots of requests for informational requests for resources
00:57:51 informational requests for resources it was incredibly busy the black staff that were in there were concentrating on answering the phones responding to two issues
00:58:04 responding to two issues and populating the whiteboards with the information i think that in that environment and that pressure and that pace
00:58:17 and that pressure and that pace they were unable to
00:58:20 to find the space to create the log and to settle into some of the processes that one might expect within a back
00:58:32 expect within a back in
00:58:35 usual circumstances i mean there's all incidences of unusual because of that but but
00:58:42 but but um
00:58:44 um um
00:58:45 um and i think that that environment that kind of fast-paced complex challenging environment meant that it was some time before
00:58:58 meant that it was some time before the back
00:58:59 the back processes
00:59:01 processes stabilized to the point that the log could be established i think that's my strong sense
00:59:13 so in relation to the bec you've described
00:59:16 described to use your term a challenging environment fast-paced in terms of trained back staff as you see in your note at that stage
00:59:27 as you see in your note at that stage that there was insufficient number of back officers at that time is that correct that's correct
00:59:35 the impression is that there was a lot of people there who were trying their best to
00:59:40 best to to assist
00:59:41 to assist but perhaps not as familiar with the processes as other trained people would be is that fair um
00:59:51 um yes i think it is could i talk a little bit more detail about that would that be helpful of course so
01:00:01 so as of the 14th of june there were 10 trained
01:00:07 trained back officers two of those officers were on leave two of those officers
01:00:18 two of those officers were
01:00:20 were undertaking other response duties one was a housing officer and one was a communications officer so they weren't able to
01:00:29 able to be in the back because they were elsewhere in the response and one was off sick
01:00:35 off sick so
01:00:36 so the 10
01:00:38 the 10 trained
01:00:39 trained staff
01:00:40 staff were immediately reduced to five staff and ten was insufficient in the first instance yes so
01:00:50 we then called upon as i think is reflected in in my log we called upon volunteers who were not trained to
01:01:00 to work with those who were trained within the back
01:01:04 the back to
01:01:04 to deliver the back functions and that term volunteers this is volunteers within the organization or bkc that's correct yes in terms of the environment it's been
01:01:17 in terms of the environment it's been described by in in evidence by other witnesses as panda gnome panda pandemonium can't even say the words and is that a fair description that it was pandemonium no i don't think so
01:01:29 pandemonium no i don't think so would you describe it as
01:01:33 chaotic in those areas no no one of the reasons the reasons and i thought long and hard about this and challenged myself over this based on
01:01:44 and challenged myself over this based on the evidence that we've heard recently um
01:01:47 um [Music]
01:01:49 [Music] at various points in that first morning it was crowded it was noisy um
01:02:01 um there were too many people in
01:02:04 in that room at various points and i'll talk about that in a second but what i saw was purpose professionalism
01:02:17 and
01:02:20 it was organized i'm being organized
01:02:26 at one point i asked everyone to leave the room who wasn't directly involved in
01:02:35 in delivering back functions and that helped a whole bunch of people left i think part of the challenge was
01:02:47 part of the challenge was that various points nicholas sort of based he was in the room and he then became the center for lots and lots of managers and lots of senior managers wanting to speak to nicholas so lots of
01:03:00 wanting to speak to nicholas so lots of conversations at various points in that room that really should have been had outside of that room it's just that nicholas was in that room so i do recall i have a strong memory of
01:03:12 so i do recall i have a strong memory of clearing the room saying if you if you do not have a back responsibility please leave this room there's a lot of other rooms you can go to to have conversations and everyone left and then i do remember
01:03:25 and everyone left and then i do remember the
01:03:26 the senior manager from adult social care coming back to me and saying i've just removed all of the link officers i think they should be in the back
01:03:36 back and i was
01:03:37 and i was to which i replied yes they should be i didn't actually mean the link officers i just meant everybody else who was in the room having conversations so
01:03:48 i can think that someone walking past that meeting that room with this door open with all of that noise in it might think that that's pandemonium
01:04:00 that that's pandemonium they might think it's chaos but actually the business of the back that's going on whilst all of that noise is happening was as i say
01:04:11 is happening was as i say purposeful and professional that's what i saw
01:04:15 i saw so in terms of timeline we've got this handover 7 30 to 8 o'clock approximately we know that there was the third seg meeting at 0830
01:04:27 meeting at 0830 and um
01:04:30 and um you together with rebecca blackburn nicholas holgate attended that meeting is that correct yes
01:04:37 yes in fact it was rebecca blackburn nicholas holgate david kerry and tony redpath so quite a few of the the contingency management team
01:04:47 team plus
01:04:48 plus two senior members mr holgate and mr redpath we're at the next meeting participating by telephone is that correct that's correct [Applause]
01:05:00 [Applause] did you consider that left a gap in terms of leadership in the back at that time i think that i didn't think that
01:05:11 i didn't think that i didn't think that initially i think that now and i think that was a mistake
01:05:23 and just to help you in terms of timeline so this is this meeting was at 8 30 just prior to that meeting you received an email which i'd like you to have a look at and you respond to that email so rather than bring up two
01:05:35 email so rather than bring up two documents i'm going to bring up the response
01:05:38 response which has the thread so we look at obk quadruple zero four zero eight seven please
01:05:51 and if we focus at the bottom please so this is the first email which you received it's from jonathan
01:06:02 it's from jonathan toy
01:06:03 toy and
01:06:05 and and it's addressed to you hi stewart hope you're okay i just want to offer my assistance if you need it in relation that above horrendous tower block fire i was one of the lead officers in dealing with the latino fire which claimed six
01:06:16 with the latino fire which claimed six lives
01:06:17 lives i wasn't only involved in the operational managements and issues which lasted many many weeks but also strategic work that we had to put in over the many months years after there was an enormous amount that we had to do as a council so if any of my
01:06:29 to do as a council so if any of my experience can help you please let me know
01:06:33 know it gives us details there
01:06:37 been fair to you a lot going on at that time meetings and everything else can you recall seeing this email at the time no i didn't see that email at the time and if we scroll up please you do
01:06:49 and if we scroll up please you do respond
01:06:52 respond um on the 17th of june so this is the saturday the weekend 12 17. hi johnson many thanks to the email unkind offer which are very much appreciated
01:07:03 appreciated we've activated london la gold so now have lots of help it is a terrible tragedy and we are in the very early stages
01:07:13 just one illustration but this was an offer from somebody who had expertise in the area you probably accept it would have been helpful potentially to have that expertise and assistance is that correct
01:07:24 expertise and assistance is that correct yes i believe so yes um you mentioned you didn't see the email at the time no was that because of the the volume of work and pressures on you at that time that's absolutely the case yes
01:07:38 and you described the beck as there was there was order and there's processes but
01:07:44 but wasn't the case to an extent that you and other members of staff were overwhelmed with what you were dealing with
01:07:57 yes
01:08:01 i'm going to move on please to a topic we saw on your handover note which was the rest centers and deployments to rest centers and you mentioned in your statement we don't need to turn to it a
01:08:12 statement we don't need to turn to it a paragraph 33 that after the 0830scg meeting a strategy was put in place to dispatch council officers to rest centers
01:08:24 council officers to rest centers is that right yes and in terms of strategy you were council silver was that your strategy or was it somebody else's strategic decision
01:08:33 decision it was uh nicholas holgate assist us in relation to that what did nicholas holget say or do um following that meeting nicholas holgate went into the back
01:08:46 holgate went into the back a number of senior managers within the back
01:08:50 back and nicholas said relayed the
01:08:57 strategy to
01:08:59 to those in the back who were waiting i think for some instruction and
01:09:08 and he relayed the strategy and at that point i have a vivid memory of various people leaving
01:09:18 leaving that building to go out i can remember two housing officers leaving
01:09:23 leaving that room to go to the rest center at that point
01:09:29 in terms of the person who made that decision was it the case rather than it being nicholas holgate in fact it was rebecca blackburn who came into the meeting came
01:09:40 blackburn who came into the meeting came into the back after the scg meeting and made the decision to deploy staff to the scene that's not my memory i i i'm aware that
01:09:53 that's not my memory i i i'm aware that um
01:09:54 um that's in her statement but that's that's not my memory
01:10:01 how comfortable are you as to your memory of who
01:10:07 who made that decision as to deployment [Music]
01:10:22 as a percentage
01:10:25 between 70
01:10:28 70 okay that's why it's difficult to say but i'd
01:10:32 but i'd i
01:10:37 i'm not saying that rebecca i'm not telling you what rebecca said but my memory my memory is this that
01:10:49 that nicholas left that meeting i'm not sure what time that meeting was that was the 8 30 strategic coordination group meeting he left that meeting and we followed him into
01:11:01 and we followed him into the holland room where the back was everybody quietened down he relayed the strategy
01:11:12 that you know we would focus on the humanitarian response with housing social workers and that we would go to the rest centers and we would do that right now
01:11:25 and by that stage seven and a half hours approximately had passed from when all bkc were notified of the fire and four hours had passed from when the
01:11:38 and four hours had passed from when the the beck was accessible and operational within the town hall did he accept that the deployment of staff to the rest center should have been done
01:11:48 been done far earlier yes when do you think it should have been done
01:11:59 with the hindsight that i have now
01:12:04 i think it should have been done after the 6 30 meeting
01:12:11 the strategic coordination group at 6 30. yes
01:12:16 30. yes and
01:12:17 and conscious is a lot going on but were you aware
01:12:20 aware being council silver that the british red cross who in part were at some of these locations these rest centers had made multiple requests to the beck
01:12:33 had made multiple requests to the beck from 5 30 in the morning and spanning five hours asking when rbk staff and rest center managers would arrive i wasn't aware of that now
01:12:45 but in in mr kerry's handover to me he said that the um butcher's red cross were at
01:12:53 were at the rest centers and he provided me with their contact not a contact number and he said he also said that lbhf would provide
01:13:07 one if not two west centre managers
01:13:12 we've heard already that in terms of all bkc trained rest center managers there was there was only one trained
01:13:21 trained except that yes yes
01:13:26 and there's a hope to try and draw on some from
01:13:29 some from and the
01:13:31 and the neighboring council but would have been a matter of concern if you heard that the british red cross were contacting the beck on multiple times
01:13:42 on multiple times effectively saying well when are you sending somebody down yes it would be i've been concerned so in this relatively ordered beck which you described
01:13:54 beck which you described in a pressurized environment has been fair to you
01:14:00 can you explain why it wasn't raised to you as the council silver the concerns which were being communicated to the back from the from the rest centers
01:14:11 the rest centers um
01:14:11 um i have no memory of of that being brought to my attention
01:14:21 in relation to the strategy i won't ask you any questions about who who made the strategy anymore but this strategy to deploy people to the rest center
01:14:32 deploy people to the rest center did that include the deployment of senior management staff to the rest centers to provide support and leadership on the 14th no
01:14:40 no not in the morning what was there a reason why it wasn't considered necessary or wasn't mentioned in the morning
01:14:51 wasn't mentioned in the morning i don't know
01:14:54 was there sufficient senior management available to attend the rest centers that morning um
01:15:06 i think there probably was
01:15:12 and dealing with this topic of senior management being providing support at the rest centers during the 14th as the day developed is it a fair summary that there was a
01:15:24 is it a fair summary that there was a chronic shortage of senior staff down at those rest centers during the 14th of june yes i think last night
01:15:35 do you now agree that perhaps more should have been done to ensure that there was
01:15:39 there was greater representation of senior managers and rest center managers at those rest centers on the 14th of june yes
01:15:48 mr chairman that may be a moment for a natural break i'm entirely in your hands yes well i think that would be a good thing mr priestly we have a break during the morning and this is a good time to take it so we'll
01:15:59 take it so we'll stop there we'll resume please at 25 to 12.
01:16:02 12. and as with all the other witnesses i have to ask you please not to talk about your evidence or anything relating to it while you're out of the room okay all right thank you very much would you give
01:16:13 right thank you very much would you give the usher
01:16:24 thank you mr keating 25-12 please thank you
01:35:06 would you answer the priestly to come back in please [Music]
01:35:17 rhapsody yes please sit down
01:35:20 you ready to carry on ahead yes yes i am i wonder if i could if i could just add to a piece of evidence that i provided this morning
01:35:31 this morning would that be yes of course so i think i was asked if the beck was overwhelmed to which my memory is that i said yes yes
01:35:42 yes and i think i just wanted to i've reflected on that i just wanted to say that certainly there were times that the back was overwhelmed
01:35:53 back was overwhelmed but that wasn't a constant theme over those three days um
01:35:59 um and i think i was just a little bit too quick to respond to that and i just wanted to make that point if that was okay yes of course all right well thank you very much thank you and in relation
01:36:10 you very much thank you and in relation to that topic of overwhelm then maybe the question was slightly different when i was asked about how you were coping did you feel overwhelmed we were touching upon an email as you may recall
01:36:21 email as you may recall during the 14th of june did you feel overwhelmed at times
01:36:27 at times by the pressures that were on you no
01:36:33 i want to touch upon your role our roles on on the 14th council silver and you mentioned that paragraph 38 of your statement we don't need to turn to it
01:36:44 it that on the first day of the instance once my role was out of beck silver i also delivered to functions of bec manager in lieu of someone to fulfill these functions is that correct
01:36:56 these functions is that correct yes
01:36:57 yes um
01:36:59 um what was the impact of having to fulfill two roles
01:37:03 two roles on the morning at the 14th of june in this challenging environment as you described it it was very pressured it was incredibly busy
01:37:13 busy i felt really stretched
01:37:18 it was a very challenging complex fast-moving environment
01:37:26 what would a bec manager do beck's supervisor manager do a back supervisor manager would hold quite a close relationship with the back
01:37:37 quite a close relationship with the back officers
01:37:40 officers manage the information flows problem solve respond to kind of very operational matters i found myself
01:37:51 fulfilling those functions unless of the strategic functions the tactical manager would fulfill so stretch between those two roles i
01:38:03 so stretch between those two roles i think that's what i was trying to describe
01:38:07 describe so stretch between two roles you have
01:38:12 you have a noisy environment as you touched upon you've got untrained staff filling gaps a huge
01:38:20 a huge volume of
01:38:22 volume of information coming into the back was that really the case that the beck was
01:38:27 was performing adequately on the 14th of june especially in that morning so
01:38:36 i think the back on the foot on the 14th and on the 15th
01:38:51 was not operating
01:38:56 delivering all of the functions that that you
01:39:00 that you go in the guidance and
01:39:05 didn't have the situational awareness that you expect in the guidance so
01:39:14 so given the size of this incident its complexity how fast it was moving there were activities and decisions
01:39:26 activities and decisions being made and delivered outside of back structures and processes and
01:39:35 and having been involved in numerous incidents
01:39:39 incidents in the period since then some of which have been quite significant and challenging
01:39:46 there was there was a difference because the size of the challenge that the local authority had was such that
01:39:57 had was such that it had to operate some of those systems such as the humanitarian response from the housing response almost alongside the back not kind of
01:40:09 almost alongside the back not kind of within those kind of back structures and information flows so i think it was a very
01:40:15 very different
01:40:16 different in an environment to that that i think was envisaged when the guidance was established i think that
01:40:24 that my
01:40:25 my view is that the it was
01:40:30 it was the tragedy was such an outlier that the systems and processes that were envisaged just didn't didn't wholly fit
01:40:46 i may come back to that in in a while but i just wanted to deal with
01:40:51 with the challenges which you were facing that morning and you touch upon those in paragraph 39 and you mentioned that on the 14th of june that one concern was ensuring that
01:41:02 june that one concern was ensuring that those who require support were able to access this support from council staff on the ground in the rest centers
01:41:10 centers is that correct yes
01:41:14 and what steps were taken to try to resolve this to provide support and enable access
01:41:23 housing officers and social workers were dispatched to the rest centers
01:41:31 and in relation to rest center managers we've heard the name elaine chumnery a back officer she assisted in the back isn't that correct on the 14th of june
01:41:42 isn't that correct on the 14th of june that's correct and thereafter 15 and 16 to june
01:41:46 to june and she says in information provided to the inquiry that one of her tasks was to liaise with westminster city council and hammersmith and fulham both who are part of the tri borough
01:41:58 both who are part of the tri borough agreement to provide rest center staff
01:42:03 and she states that it was difficult june to have to rely on volunteers from those councils coming forward did you was that your experience that was difficult trying to get rest center
01:42:14 was difficult trying to get rest center staff and managers from surrounding boroughs in those early days because you're seeking volunteers
01:42:25 i don't i i wasn't directly involved in that my memory is of liaising with aleister as in
01:42:35 as in the london bow of hammersmith and fulham but not me having any direct liaison with
01:42:40 with westminster i have to take elaine's assessment as as that being the case
01:42:50 in general terms was trying to obtain rest center managers in those early days when rbkc was leading the response a real difficulty
01:43:01 as i said i think i'd i will have to defer to to others who were more directly involved in that for their view i'm happy to accept that elaine's view on that she was the
01:43:13 elaine's view on that she was the officer directly um working on trying to identify those vest center managers i wasn't involved in that i'm going to move on now to communication
01:43:24 communication and the rest centers and
01:43:27 and as council silver and the manager within the back how did you get information and updates from the various rest centers on the 14th of june
01:43:37 so the laylos were providing information through to the back
01:43:43 there were officers
01:43:47 officers council officers based within the rest centers who were providing information as well and i'm aware that there were tmo staff as well providing information to the back
01:43:59 information to the back i i
01:44:01 i i haven't got a strong memory of
01:44:07 of a
01:44:09 a systematic kind of
01:44:12 kind of process of of capturing that information from the from the from the rest centers it's a fair to say that any information that was coming back was piecemeal rather than systematic
01:44:27 well i think it was systematic from the laylos because the laylos were dialing in
01:44:32 in on
01:44:34 on each hour
01:44:36 each hour to provide updates um
01:44:39 um outside of that i i don't think it was systematic i don't think the system had been put in place
01:44:48 i do recall at one point and i'm not sure at which point it was during those three days assigning a back officer i think it was probably would have been on that
01:45:01 probably would have been on that it would have been on on the 14th at one point in the afternoon assigning a back officer per
01:45:11 per rest center to be the liaison point i have a memory of that
01:45:18 in relation to the layla's you've mentioned in your supplementary statement paragraph 10.3 that contact was made
01:45:25 was made by the layla's late afternoon so about two o'clock onwards that process as you described it was implemented does that sound correct yes and from
01:45:36 and from this
01:45:37 this information that was being sought what sort of issues were being fed back to you if any
01:45:48 on the 14th of june
01:45:52 i think there were
01:45:56 my understanding of the issues were that they were around basic
01:46:04 provision of of food
01:46:07 of food of clothing sanitary items was requests for those type of items which were coming into the bank i think those are the needs that were
01:46:18 i think those are the needs that were being identified that people were homeless i've i'm struggling here like i'm just
01:46:24 i'm just to
01:46:25 to think in my my memory
01:46:29 memory of shall i try and assist you in relation to that would be helpful of course
01:46:33 course um well let's deal with one topic was the lack of information being communicated to those who were affected was that an issue that was being fed back to you
01:46:44 i could turn you to an email if that would happen yeah that would be helpful um
01:46:49 um let's have a look at obk please quadruple zero six five zero eight and we'll see that this is from one of the lelo's who was
01:46:59 who was um
01:47:03 desmond zeifer is that how you pronounce the surname zephyr zephyr and he was one of the lelo's is that correct who had been tasked to go around from rest center to rest center
01:47:14 rest center is that correct yes and we see 1615 i'm currently at rugby portobello where an announcement was made regarding cometing those from grenville i.e elderly and vulnerable
01:47:26 grenville i.e elderly and vulnerable advice coming from the centers that i visited is that there's a lack on information being communicated i've directed inquiries to the website but the feeling is this is not sufficient so hopefully we can utilize
01:47:37 sufficient so hopefully we can utilize social media more red cross and humanity first are coordinating the volunteer response
01:47:48 and you forwarded this email we can see that the email is at 1615. it sends to you
01:47:54 you rebecca blackburn david curry and you forwarded that on to the beck at 1641.
01:48:01 at 1641. and
01:48:03 and what was what action did you expect to be undertaken by that being forwarded to the back
01:48:08 the back the back would log that and that they would um
01:48:12 would um engage with the communications team and the communications team would try and do something to remedy the situation that's the media and communication team
01:48:24 that's the media and communication team led by martin fitzpatrick that's correct do you recall as council silver any specific actions being done to try to address issues with communication as identified here on the 14th of june i
01:48:37 identified here on the 14th of june i don't have any recollection of that now let's move on now to registration registration of those who are affected at the rest centers what was your understanding of the process for registration of those who
01:48:50 process for registration of those who attended rest centers
01:48:54 my understanding was that those who attended were being registered that that information should be passed to the police
01:49:06 was that an assumption was that something you were told was that something by way of training where did the understanding stem from
01:49:18 i can't recall i'm sorry and in terms of the rest centers who did you understand to be responsible for the registration process
01:49:33 i
01:49:38 whomever was
01:49:41 in charge of the rest centers okay
01:49:46 okay again i'm not trying to trick you in any of these questions at all but did you understand who was responsible for registration at rest centers on the 14th of june
01:50:00 as i say i think my understanding would have been that it would have been whomever was in charge of the rest centers the operational
01:50:12 the operational rest center manager
01:50:18 would that mean the local authority would be in charge of the registration process at restaurants rest centers as you as you understood at the time probably yes i'm aware that the british
01:50:31 probably yes i'm aware that the british red cross also have a
01:50:36 process to register
01:50:40 at rest centers but my understanding is that they're doing so on behalf of the local authority
01:50:50 authority it's the local authority's responsibility is it fair that from the 14th to the 16th of june whilst or bkc were leading the response
01:51:01 whilst or bkc were leading the response that there was an ongoing issue regarding uncertainty as the numbers of people affected yes i think that's the case
01:51:15 and how confident are you as to your understanding at the time of the process of registration
01:51:26 i think i understood it broadly i didn't don't think i had quite a detailed understanding of it
01:51:37 in terms of british red cross you mentioned and their involvement at rest centers and in specifically the west way were you aware that they would record details using triple carbon paper
01:51:49 details using triple carbon paper no
01:51:52 i wondered if we could have a look at colin brown from british red cross statements we've seen it yesterday but i want to give you the opportunity and you're probably aware of this if you watched it yesterday b or c please seven
01:52:03 watched it yesterday b or c please seven zeros
01:52:04 zeros five
01:52:05 five page 25 please paragraph 100.
01:52:23 let's get here for one moment
01:52:30 he says this i remember that there was an issue during these initial stages no centralized system of recording the needs status or location of survivors the only system that did appear to be put in place by or bkc was the one with
01:52:42 put in place by or bkc was the one with which the or asked the brc to assist which was to control access to the westway throughout the entirety of the center's operation or bkc had produced a number of hardcopy
01:52:54 or bkc had produced a number of hardcopy forms on triple carbon paper brc volunteers and staff simply went around the west and recorded the details of any one of people who approached the registration desk but also anyone who they came across who had not been previously
01:53:06 across who had not been previously registered they came across the brc volunteers employees then kept one copy copying provided the other two copies to obkc and
01:53:15 and no request was made by the rbkc that the brc
01:53:19 brc entered its data into any electronic system or to collate the data in any other meaningful way and indeed i consider that this would have been the responsibility of relief for any local authority in response to a
01:53:30 for any local authority in response to a disaster and not that of the brc were you aware of that process at the time
01:53:36 time no
01:53:38 no as council silver during the day but you inherited that position as david curry was working at night do you think you should have been aware of that process
01:53:47 process yes
01:53:51 paragraph 101 mr brown
01:53:55 mr brown say from british crosses this however i got the sense that the obkc was not discharging this responsibility i came to this view because a b or c volunteer found a box containing a
01:54:06 volunteer found a box containing a number of the second and third copies of the registration forms that had been filled in by the brc and provided the or bkc left lying around the west way it appeared that no efforts have been
01:54:17 it appeared that no efforts have been made by the obkc to collate the data in any sensible manner i asked the bronze i think he's referring to their british red cross bronze on-site duty officer
01:54:29 bronze on-site duty officer to report the presence of this box to or bkc to express concern and dissatisfaction as this state of affairs and after clarifications as to how the data was appropriately collated however
01:54:41 data was appropriately collated however i am unaware how the council responded or whether it did in fact do so at all
01:54:48 were you aware of concerns being expressed in those early days by the british red cross as to the treatment of the registration forms at the west way no it wasn't
01:55:00 no it wasn't so as council silver during the day and this bec which was operating you say appropriately and adequately you weren't made aware of this issue at all i've no memory of being made aware of this issue at all
01:55:13 and do you accept that this is a an unacceptable state of affairs in relation to registering those who are affected by the fire yes i do
01:55:27 i'm going to move on to the west where we touched upon it there and we can take that off the screen thank you very much the west west sports centre this was a a rest center which had opened spontaneously in the community on the
01:55:39 spontaneously in the community on the 14th of june rather than officially by or bkc is that correct yes that's my understanding yes
01:55:49 can you say when it was decided at the westway sports center would provide the overnight rest center facilities for the night of the 14th and in essence become that consolidated
01:56:00 and in essence become that consolidated rest center i think
01:56:04 i think it was
01:56:07 it was either
01:56:08 either at the 11 o'clock rbkc gold group or around that time
01:56:17 so 11 11 midday ish i think that's
01:56:24 that's my my memory okay i wonder if if it's possible to open up your second statements please the paragraph 9.1
01:56:44 and this question had been asked put to you before in writing when in the afternoon was this decision made
01:56:53 made so paragraph 39 of your first statement suggests it was made in the afternoon not at the 11 o'clock meeting we can turn to it if you wish so bearing in mind that you said in your first statement that it was in the
01:57:04 first statement that it was in the afternoon that decision was made you were asked when in the afternoon was this decision made and you say this at 9.1 and i am unable to be precise about the timing of the decision made on 14th of
01:57:15 timing of the decision made on 14th of june
01:57:16 june and then you produce the obkc gold meeting minutes for three o'clock and
01:57:24 and it states in there westminster sports centre will be open overnight looking at how many people need to be accommodated
01:57:33 is it the case that that decision piecing together your statements and the documentation must have been made sometime
01:57:41 sometime close to three o'clock onwards i think
01:57:45 i think now that i've seen this that's quite possibly the case yes
01:57:52 you were attending a number of meetings on the 14th of june we've got the scg meetings we've heard about yes
01:58:00 about yes was it right that you were tasked to attend mass fatality group meetings as well i did i'm not going to ask you about those were those meetings you had to attend correct you attended the or bkc gold meetings as
01:58:12 you attended the or bkc gold meetings as well
01:58:13 well which were at
01:58:15 at 11 o'clock and 3 o'clock is that correct i didn't attend those on the on the 14th you didn't no i attended a strategic silver meeting in
01:58:26 in so i think there was a so the morning gold group the rbkc gold group i didn't attend that rebecca
01:58:35 rebecca blackburn attended that on behalf of the uh on behalf of the back um because i think i had was there was a potential overlap with the mass
01:58:46 potential overlap with the mass fatalities and in the afternoon meeting i don't think at the 3pm goal group i don't think i attended that either because it was an overlap with the strategic silver meeting which is which
01:58:58 strategic silver meeting which is which i dialed into so on the first day i'd my notes my memories i didn't attend those goal group meetings but i did attend them
01:59:08 them in the subsequent days okay i think i may be misdirection you did attend the the goal meetings and subsequent days yes but on the 14th of june there was those meetings you said you attended plus
01:59:20 you attended plus the silver meetings which are the tactical coordination group meetings as well yes and they were chaired by the metropolitan police isn't that correct that's correct in essence the silvers those who are
01:59:32 in essence the silvers those who are leading the operational or tactical response liaising with each other to ensure situational awareness that's cool amongst other things
01:59:44 in relation to those we know that there was from
01:59:47 was from evidence being provided to the inquiry that
01:59:50 that the 10 o'clock and 12 30 tactical coordination group meetings um
01:59:55 um took place but no one directly from or bkc was noticed attending save tom brady from london resilience do you know the reason why i don't know the reason why now
02:00:07 i don't know the reason why now was it the case that all bkc was simply too stretched to attend somebody to those meetings i think that's probably a reasonable assessment i mean i have no memory of being
02:00:18 memory of being informed that those meetings are taking place
02:00:24 no memory informed that they're taking place
02:00:27 place those ones in them those the ones that you refer to in the morning and even if you were invited there would have been difficulties in terms of capacity at that stage i think that um
02:00:42 i would have tried to get someone there yes
02:00:46 yes does it follow that you were not aware of the outcome of those
02:00:52 of those tactical coordination group meetings at ten o'clock and twelve thirty in the morning the fourteenth afternoon don't recall that no
02:01:01 we do know that you attended the next one which was at fifteen thirty three thirty in the afternoon and that was chaired by chief inspector stokey
02:01:11 stokey and
02:01:12 and from those meetings perhaps i can lead it this way he noted that police advised that all the rest centers were full to capacity and an alternative venue should be sourced for the friends and family
02:01:23 sourced for the friends and family reception center which was at the salvation army building on portobello road
02:01:29 road and rbkc were tasked to review the numbers and capacity of the rest center and families and friends were centered to ensure that there was sufficient provision
02:01:39 provision does that assist in terms of the summary of events at that meeting under 15 15 30.
02:01:46 yes it is it certainly assists but i've i've i've no memory of that but certainly it assists and i'm i'm
02:01:56 i'm i was certainly there but
02:02:01 we know that you attended the next meeting at six o'clock next tactical coordination group meeting and you were there with david curry and it was reported that or bkc had reviewed the rest center
02:02:12 or bkc had reviewed the rest center provision and it was sufficient the westward was only a quarter full and a decision was made not to open another rest center does that sound correct
02:02:23 yes and in relation to the friends and family reception center it was reported by all bkc not to be busy but you or because you were in a position to open a further one if
02:02:34 position to open a further one if required and that you would review the position on the 15th of june
02:02:41 does that assist it
02:02:44 it it sounds yes very sensible and plausible i have no memory of that you know i'm really sorry no you're just you're just reliant on the documentation i understand
02:02:55 i understand um just want to bring out one one matter which was which was raised i could take a statement but perhaps i could just summarize what's said by a chief inspector stoking in his statement at page 24
02:03:07 statement at page 24 at the tactical coordination group meeting at six o'clock and police reported and the police category which report was called bronze hospitals so likely to be somebody who
02:03:19 hospitals so likely to be somebody who was based at the hospital reported that information about the rest centers and what help and support is available was not getting through to people for whom english was not their first language
02:03:30 first language do you recall that um
02:03:33 um i don't know but i've i understand that to have been an issue i've seen other documents to describe that
02:03:42 that it's something which clearly emerged on the 14th of june as a live issue is that correct that's correct i think it may have also been picked up at one of the subsequent gold meetings as well
02:03:53 meetings as well and what steps in mind this was a an issue or bkc in general was aware of were taken to support to communicate with those whose english was not their first language
02:04:05 language i can't recall any steps being being taken that's not so that there weren't steps taken but i just can't recall them i'm telling you sorry
02:04:15 i mean the council had access to services such as language line i mean in my previous role as a social worker for the authority
02:04:26 the authority we would use language line and those type of type of services so
02:04:32 so social work staff on the ground and housing work staff on the ground had access to those types of services in relation to putting out information printed information in different
02:04:43 printed information in different languages it might seem a sensible uh option in this in this regard i i don't know if any of that was undertaken
02:04:55 in general terms there was
02:04:57 there was significant challenges with communication to those affected irrespective of the language issues isn't that correct yes that's correct
02:05:09 in relation to the 14th of june which we've spent some time in relation to have you handed over your duties to david curry around eight or nine o'clock um on your account set down your
02:05:20 um on your account set down your evidence and you've been up since three o'clock in the morning is that correct that's correct
02:05:28 and in terms of your assessment of obkc's response and how they were coping with leading the response in relation to the aftermath and meeting the needs it does effect on
02:05:40 and meeting the needs it does effect on the 14th of june how did you think more bkc were doing
02:05:48 think i think at the time i i'm
02:05:53 i i'm i have to go back to what i thought at the time
02:06:00 and i think that my
02:06:03 my thought i thought at the time that the council was working extremely hard and doing all that it could in a very challenging and complex
02:06:15 and complex and fast-moving incident
02:06:21 i felt that we probably were we weren't there
02:06:25 there early enough and i felt that we the
02:06:31 the authority was struggled to catch up during the rest of the day
02:06:38 describes that struggle to catch up and the efforts which were being undertaken by you and your colleagues but was this sustainable look going forward did you think
02:06:51 forward did you think i'd
02:06:53 i'd so i think
02:06:56 in the morning
02:07:01 my view was
02:07:05 that we would seek to cope with the existing as i'd said earlier in my evidence that we would seek to cope with the existing resources with the count within the council and on our
02:07:17 count within the council and on our neighboring boroughs under the kind of tribal arrangements but come the evening come the following day
02:07:28 i thought we needed more help at each level of the response
02:07:37 in order to respond i was
02:07:45 being in the back for all those hours and working
02:07:50 really intensely was like being in a bubble i don't think
02:07:59 the true magnitude of the tragedy really hit me until i got home and i was able to
02:08:12 what's the television
02:08:15 i did feel like i was in you know yeah i think it didn't properly hit me the magnitude so come the following morning
02:08:27 so come the following morning i did think that the we needed more help at each level
02:08:33 so the magnitude of events came to you when you
02:08:36 when you came home after a long shift and then by the morning your view was that you or bkc needed more help yeah let's turn to the 15th of june
02:08:47 let's turn to the 15th of june i'll deal with probably a little bit shorter if that's okay with you we know that you had a handover in the morning with david curry who had been working overnight
02:08:56 overnight and you mentioned your in your statement at paragraph 43 that the beck log still contained many actions which were lived and not closed is that correct yes and was that a
02:09:08 is that correct yes and was that a matter of concern for you yes
02:09:11 yes and why was that
02:09:14 i had hoped now this may be due to my inexperience but i had hoped that it would be a bit quieter during the night
02:09:24 night and that um some more progress have been been able to be made around the closing off some of the
02:09:32 of the some of the live log issues perhaps we could have a quick look at an email which you sense obk quadruple zero four two four four please
02:09:44 quadruple zero four two four four please sent in the morning 0 508.
02:09:54 we need a strategy for today today sent by you to stuart priestley all are to the back calms distributing aid housing plan as well
02:10:04 well longer term recovery strategy i'm sure you've given this thought overnight do you recall sending that
02:10:12 no but but i clearly did now having seen it and trying to recollect as you're going into that new day
02:10:20 day understanding the magnitude of what has happened thinking we need support and what was the outcome of this request can you recall
02:10:35 i can't recall in your handover did you describe a handover taking place that morning was there any discussion
02:10:46 morning was there any discussion regarding staff levels for the beck and staff
02:10:50 and staff levels including rest center managers at the rest centers i um
02:10:56 i um i can't recall but i would have expected conversation this conversation about calling on
02:11:05 the uh
02:11:06 uh lack for
02:11:08 lack for mutual aid because i think there were conversations i know from my reading that were conversations with the lack about mutual aid staff
02:11:19 from the lack to be provided on on the 15th but i got no memory of the conversation i think we had two lakhs in there so
02:11:30 i think we had two lakhs in there so you're talking about the lack of mutual aid staff and then you talk about lack being the
02:11:36 being the london local authority coordination yes
02:11:41 and they they are that's the the organization that can provide mutual aid yes to uh to
02:11:53 uh to local authorities in such circumstances and there were conversations between the back and the lack about
02:12:02 mutual aid staff going into the back and i think there was a on the evening of the 15th
02:12:14 on the evening of the 15th louise elstow attended
02:12:18 attended the back and i think my memory is that she attended the back as a result of coming through the lock
02:12:27 this coordination center yes the coordination center let's call it that yes
02:12:32 yes there's difficulties then in terms of obtaining
02:12:36 obtaining staff
02:12:37 staff assistance via this mutual aid process at that stage yes we know that mark sawyer who is a chief executive liaison officer resilience attended a town hall on the 15th of june
02:12:50 attended a town hall on the 15th of june um and there was a meeting around 8 o'clock in the morning did you attend that meeting
02:12:57 i don't know if there's evidence to suggest i did then i'm happy to concede that but i no memory of that i won't take you to it but it's it's referred to in your notebook as mark
02:13:08 referred to in your notebook as mark sawyer meeting at eight o'clock okay which is why i've asked yeah but do you have any independent recollection of what was discussed when you met mark sullivan if you met mark sawyer no
02:13:19 sullivan if you met mark sawyer no perhaps we could open up paragraph 44 of your first statements please rbk triple zero three five six seven two please
02:13:28 please paragraph forty 44.
02:13:34 and it just sets out here what you were doing
02:13:37 doing as beck silver he managed the bec delivery
02:13:40 delivery supporting the humanitarian assistance strategy
02:13:45 strategy which sue redmond by that stage was leading as halo you're also responding and supporting the implementation of a donation strategy led by debbie morris
02:13:58 strategy led by debbie morris i'm now over leaf and i wanted to focus on this aspect a priority was to get the outer cordon lifted so residents could return to their homes if they
02:14:09 could return to their homes if they wished
02:14:11 wished is that correct yes
02:14:14 yes i don't know that that was a priority for the
02:14:18 for the i think it was within the gift of the local authority to lift that cord and i think that was with the police and the fire services but i think there was concern
02:14:29 concern that if that outer corner wasn't lifted that the authority wouldn't have would struggle to accommodate displaced
02:14:41 displaced those that would be displaced by that cord
02:14:47 over the next period so let's focus on this struggle to accommodate those people as you described if we could open up the or bkc gold group minutes which took place on
02:14:58 gold group minutes which took place on the 15th of june at 3 30. that's all bk triple zero two zero four four eight at page one
02:15:12 and we see under response priorities
02:15:17 fourth bullet points if the corner is not lifted then have over 800 people to find places we'll need to seek help from government do you recall that
02:15:30 do you recall that yes
02:15:36 what was the nature of help from government that was being considered at that meeting at half past 315 to june uh i no man we have a conversation about the nature of that
02:15:47 the nature of that i think
02:15:48 i think that our housing colleagues had worked very hard to try and identify the bed spaces that they had this was summer it was in london
02:16:01 and i think that was a challenge for them and i think it would have been a significant challenge to find
02:16:09 to find hotel spaces for 800 people in the middle of
02:16:12 middle of the summer i think that i'm going to assume that that was the anxiety that was being discussed at the gold group
02:16:24 so relations had anxiety and the
02:16:27 and the was there pressure exerted on the tmo to ensure that displaced people would return to their homes in the walkways
02:16:38 return to their homes in the walkways irrespective of the condition of the properties on the 15th and 16th of june i haven't got a sense of that no that's not something that was apparent to me at the time
02:16:48 the time so i have no memory of that either i just want to explore that a little bit more with you if you can let's open up a statement from teresa brown the director of housing for the cmo tmo
02:17:00 tmo 0086990
02:17:04 paragraph 45.
02:17:15 give you a chance to familiarize yourself this is her statement paragraph 45 i recall on the 15th of june having discussions with stuart priestley from rbkc beck who advised that consideration was being given at that time to return
02:17:27 was being given at that time to return residents evacuate in the surrounding areas of the tower do you recall that now that discussion i certainly had conversations with um uh teresa
02:17:39 uh teresa i'm going to deal with in parts i recall discussing the possible impact on residents if this went ahead advising that if residents returned home they would have no gas boiler consequently no hot water cooking facilities as the
02:17:51 hot water cooking facilities as the surrounding areas ran off the towers heating hot water services we also needed to repair damaged doors and that suggests that returning residents should not be rushed back until we could ensure provision of
02:18:03 until we could ensure provision of services
02:18:04 services do you recall her saying that that suggestion returning residents should not be rushed back until we could ensure proper provision of services i don't recall
02:18:15 provision of services i don't recall that no
02:18:20 by the evening of the 15th of june was it a position that despite what we've had read out there about concerns by the tmo
02:18:29 tmo that the decision of or bkc gold group was that the walkway residents should be returned as soon as possible um
02:18:39 um [Music]
02:18:41 [Music] i'm sure that that's the case if if that's recorded in the minutes
02:18:47 well let's read paragraph 48 after statement if we could scroll down
02:18:55 at approximately 8 p.m on the 15th of june i was contacted by the beck and asked to meet police inspector bean at kensington leisure center this was inspected
02:19:04 inspected this was to inspect a finger block walkway area to examine whether all the areas that needed boarding up for resin's return was secure moving on i was advised on that inspection that intention of gold group
02:19:16 inspection that intention of gold group was that the finger block resin should be returned as soon as possible i repeated my concerns about it being premature due to lack of gas heating et cetera
02:19:29 and who's on our telephone sasha jevons from tmo from site who had the same reservations ms jevins said she would call laura johnson or bkc
02:19:40 johnson or bkc sasha germans called me back shortly after and said that laura johnson said we had to go with the gold group decision so in relation to this it's not in a minute
02:19:51 in a minute but were you aware that orbee casey gold had made a decision or there was a communication that
02:19:59 that residents would have to go back to those properties into finger blocks
02:20:11 i wasn't um
02:20:20 i can't say that i was i mean i think if i was at that meeting and that was a decision that was made then i would have been aware of that but that decision
02:20:31 but that decision was not a decision that i made personally i didn't that's i didn't have the expertise to that i've not seen you enough to do that whilst i was a silver within this that
02:20:42 whilst i was a silver within this that is a gold decision
02:20:46 i suppose the question is more not that you made a decision i'm not suggesting you did but whether you were aware that that decision was made i think if i was at that meeting when that decision was made at that
02:20:57 when that decision was made at that meeting then i would have probably been i would have been aware of that decision and if the decision wasn't made at the meeting and it was made after the meeting but before eight
02:21:08 after the meeting but before eight o'clock on the 15th of june for some of that time you're council silver and the beck were you aware then in your position as council silver of that decision
02:21:20 of that decision i'm i've no memory of that but i'm i may or may not have been i think as i described in the morning the first session
02:21:30 session there were decisions a lot of decisions being made independent and outside of the back structures if this wasn't made of gold which i was present was made out outside of gold
02:21:43 present was made out outside of gold then there was a chance that i was not aware of it i wonder if you could return back to the minutes of the meeting i'm going to move on to slightly different topic 15 30 minutes
02:21:54 minutes of the rbkc gold meeting or bkc triple zero
02:21:58 zero two zero four four eight
02:22:11 page one final bullet points the beck to collect information on number of people registering at the rest centers we've touched upon this a number of
02:22:22 we've touched upon this a number of times that this was a constant theme throughout the 14th of june and into the 15th of june isn't that correct yes
02:22:31 was there confidence at all bkc by this stage i've been in possession of accurate information of the number of people registering at rest centers i don't
02:22:42 registering at rest centers i don't think there was no
02:22:47 and was there knowledge and information as to what the other unofficial res centers such as the rugby portobello trust and clement james who were still being used by those
02:22:58 who were still being used by those displaced
02:22:59 displaced the numbers there was there any knowledge as to that could you scroll to i've slightly lost the time frame i'm totally sorry it's not i'm moving around documents it's not your fault we're on
02:23:10 documents it's not your fault we're on we're on thursday 15th of june okay and it's 15 30. so 3 30 in the afternoon okay your council's silver yeah and
02:23:19 and we know by this stage westway is the official rest center yes rugby portobello trust and clement james center are are no longer official rest centers
02:23:28 centers but there's evidence suggest that they're still being used yes was that your understanding at the time that's correct
02:23:35 correct was there
02:23:37 was there support that you were aware of being provided on the 15th of june to those unofficial rest centers i'm not aware of any support no
02:23:49 if we could scroll down please to page three
02:23:53 three under the heading forward look internal staffing again another theme that we've touched upon
02:24:01 upon n a that's nick austin is that correct yes said that the westward sports center needs a senior manager and a rest center manager beck working on rota for rest center
02:24:13 beck working on rota for rest center manager senior officers thin on ground but we'll think about it this is that correct yes
02:24:21 yes why were senior officers thin on the ground
02:24:25 ground i'm not
02:24:26 i'm not sure i'm not sure whether that was
02:24:32 because
02:24:36 of
02:24:38 because they were deployed to other parts of the response or because it was the summer time some of them won't leave or i'm not sure
02:24:49 and that the last topic at this meeting is at the top of page three [Applause] we on page three
02:25:02 yes tell the page three thank you and it's an entry under communication cc that's claire chamberlain feedback that comes communication was
02:25:13 feedback that comes communication was not seen to be working and the council was not visible enough that was something which was highlighted is that correct yes and if we return to another document
02:25:25 yes and if we return to another document please
02:25:26 please leaving this theme for a moment that's obk quadruple zero three nine seven three
02:25:38 is desmond zeifer zephyr zephyr i'll get it right third time 15th of june earlier 11 21 to you and the beck
02:25:50 to you and the beck morning can i get an updated list of the official rest centers and respite centers
02:25:55 centers and what they're offering i'm being asked by voluntary groups where people can or should be directed to also it's possible to get a list of what items if they are actually needed finally again the complaint is there's a
02:26:07 finally again the complaint is there's a lack of communication and strategy on the ground where can people go to get clear messages and information today i've been directing people to the council website but if there are social
02:26:18 council website but if there are social official social media streams i think this would be more effective you recall that email
02:26:27 um i've seen that email i don't recall it but i've certainly seen it and you agree that was a justified complaint so it was a lack of communication and strategy yes
02:26:39 and really pulling together the minutes of the meetings
02:26:44 meetings and emails on the 15th of june regarding staffing visibility communication were these illustrations how or bkc on the 15th of june were struggling in leading the humanitarian response
02:26:56 leading the humanitarian response yes
02:27:02 we know that you worked on the 16th of june i'm not going to ask you questions in relation to that as we know that in due course um the london local london goals
02:27:13 local london goals arrangements were were activated formally at two o'clock on the friday so i just want to move to the the last section
02:27:22 section and you've touched upon it already really regarding this last section but adequacy the response we've dealt with the 14th of june we don't look at 15 of june but stepping back for a moment
02:27:33 what were your observations on the adequacy of the response during the first seven days of the aftermath by or bkc
02:27:42 i think that
02:27:51 the incident was bigger than rbkc could handle what i saw was people working incredibly hard doing their absolute best
02:28:04 doing their absolute best but i don't think we were there early enough there weren't enough of us the authority failed to communicate effectively what it was doing
02:28:16 effectively what it was doing what the offer was and how to access
02:28:26 that last part failed to communicate effectively what it was doing what the offer was and how to access that offer yes yes not consistently yeah
02:28:37 thank you mr priestley in relation to that so i'm just going to touch upon a few things you say in your statement you set out your statement your first statement please just perhaps to clarify a few matters that's obk
02:28:48 that's obk triple zero three five six seven two paragraph 59
02:28:56 [Music]
02:29:07 you've you've summarized that to us a moment ago the first part in relation to communication how
02:29:14 how your view the council's communications you didn't think they were sufficient and it's the final sentence i just wanted to draw out once the communication impetus was lost on the first day it was something that was very
02:29:26 first day it was something that was very difficult to recover from is that correct yes we could scroll down to paragraph 62 and something which is in your
02:29:37 and something which is in your statements which you say regarding the planned policies and procedures i do not believe that the plans were lacking in any way the plans were of sufficient standards the plans were followed
02:29:49 followed you had mentioned in relation to the beck
02:29:52 beck sometimes you were doing things which were not within the processes but do you still stand by that um
02:30:00 um information set out in your statement that you believe the plans were not lacking in any way so i think where i was coming from with the for that statement
02:30:11 that statement was
02:30:13 was in the period immediately following
02:30:18 following the fire the council asked an independent emergency planning expert to review the plans to make an assessment as to whether the plans were
02:30:30 whether the plans were substandard in any way and my understanding was that his assessment was that their plans were sufficient so i was being guided in that assessment
02:30:43 so i was being guided in that assessment by
02:30:45 by uh an independent expert i mean i think we established at the very beginning that i took no part in the the writing of these plans because i'm not a subject matter expert
02:30:56 matter expert so that's what guided that part of the statement yes i think that the plans when i say the plans are followed as we've already established today
02:31:09 as we've already established today um and this week the plans weren't followed to the letter but i think if you there were many parts of the
02:31:21 the contingency management plan which were followed in that on that first day but
02:31:28 but not all of the plans were followed all of the time
02:31:34 in relation to you've been following the evidence that you said you've heard the evidence of david curry yesterday and the day before and you may have seen or heard the opening submissions made by or bkc
02:31:45 opening submissions made by or bkc at the beginning of this module and there was acceptance that the rbkc plans were deficient in a number of ways and
02:31:56 and are you disagreeing with that in light of what you said at paragraph 62 or do you accept what is said by david curry and or bkc now well i think some of the plans were
02:32:07 well i think some of the plans were deficient some of the plans were absent some of the plans were draft i i would completely agree with that the evidence that the inquiry is already received
02:32:19 i think in making that statement in in my the written statement i was really thinking about the contingency management plan and i think that that was what was assessed my
02:32:31 that that was what was assessed my memories correct and found to be not substantially lacking and then
02:32:37 and then in relation to that document that main plan that's the one which david curry conceives that there was some shortcomings in relation to as do all bkc well i'm
02:32:48 all bkc well i'm i'm sure that's the case because david is a as an expert i'm not an expert um i'm sure the council's legal team have had opportunity to pour over in far more detail yes and and develop their
02:32:59 more detail yes and and develop their own expertise around it to draw their own conclusion which would be far you know it's not in mind forgive me this is not a criticism of you no um as you mentioned before it's not your
02:33:10 as you mentioned before it's not your area of expertise contingency management that's mr curry's area of expertise
02:33:19 you were his line manager was there any
02:33:26 structural difficulties that you were there as his line manager by way of oversight of his work when you had no real expertise in relation to the nature of his work
02:33:38 of his work um
02:33:42 i don't think so i think
02:33:48 within within local government and i'm sure within lots of other organizations as well
02:33:56 well you will have people who are subject matter expert experts being managed by people who are not subject matter experts i think the question
02:34:08 i think the question is a fair one to what degree should i have been a subject matter expert in order to manage a subject matter expert where does that line finish i don't know
02:34:20 where does that line finish i don't know i think
02:34:22 i think i don't
02:34:24 i don't think
02:34:25 think that the arrangements that we had with myself as not being a subject matter expert managing a subject matter expert or any different
02:34:36 subject matter expert or any different to any other local authority in regards the
02:34:41 the contingency managing mac the contingency planning teams certainly not only different to the hammersmith and fulham as well as is
02:34:52 i think that will be the case for for many other london powers just stepping back and analyzing that for a moment although it may not be different from
02:35:04 although it may not be different from other local authorities do you think it's a potential or was a potential blind spot actually that your
02:35:12 that your lack of expertise meant that there wasn't proper oversight of david curry um
02:35:27 i think that
02:35:31 i think there are other measures that can be put in place to provide corporate
02:35:38 corporate scrutiny of contingency planning teams and i think the authority at the time lacked
02:35:51 scrutiny of
02:35:55 of the contingency planning team so it wasn't a so my relationship to david was a management relationship there was a degree of scrutiny responsibility that i had within that
02:36:08 responsibility that i had within that relationship but i think the authority because
02:36:15 because the
02:36:17 the responsibility for responding to incidents under civil contingencies act is not located within the team it's located within the authority and at the most senior level
02:36:29 and at the most senior level and i think that the the
02:36:33 the scrutiny
02:36:37 the authority lacked the didn't have a piece of apparatus didn't have a
02:36:42 have a means
02:36:44 means to exert a scrutinous eye across
02:36:50 across the work of the team and the council's
02:36:54 council's capabilities in responding to incidents thank you
02:37:00 final area so we're towards the end now something that you've touched upon already that there was a number of internal
02:37:08 internal debris that rbkc which were undertaken by an external expert so there was the kensington and chelsea grenville fire debrief report ran to about 105 pages prepared by
02:37:21 ran to about 105 pages prepared by andrew pritchard which was there to capture the learning from the grenville tower fire isn't that correct yes i wondered if we could open that up and just want to deal with a couple of headlines if i may that's obk
02:37:33 headlines if i may that's obk triple zero six eight zero seven five
02:37:42 so that's the the first page there and if we could go to the page three please
02:37:52 section five findings executive summary four key themes of the debrief are communications
02:38:03 communications pausing their 5.2 communications with accepting the fourth question concerning the provision of normal services during the fire response the issue addressed by the overwhelming number of responders was that of
02:38:15 number of responders was that of communications both internally internally and externally accounting to nearly one-quarter folder replies pausing there for a moment in terms of contexts
02:38:26 contexts this debrief report invited um
02:38:31 um staff who were at all bkc which i'm sure probably included you to fill out a questionnaire and that material was digested by department collated and analyzed and this is the
02:38:42 collated and analyzed and this is the report is that correct yes and communications was the the most frequently mentioned theme isn't that correct yes
02:38:51 yes and from what you said to us in your evidence
02:38:55 evidence it's probably a valid well it's not probably it is a valid issue which was raised yes planning and procedure is the second topic we can see at 5.1 perhaps we could scroll down to 5.5
02:39:08 perhaps we could scroll down to 5.5 a little bit lower the next most common theme across the responses was that of planning and procedure in a variety of forms
02:39:15 forms contingency planning for the council and directorates business community planning for directors and allied to this desire for staff to understand those arrangements and to be trained in them is that correct yes
02:39:27 is that correct yes we go back to 5.1 we see communication community engagement forgive me and scroll back down to 5.6 it was clear from a response that the issue of community engagement and better
02:39:39 issue of community engagement and better working with community groups was important to staff all suggested improved ways of working with knc's communities must be found and common to this was the idea of establishing links for emergency working
02:39:51 establishing links for emergency working now and utilizing community groups and their context and skills to respond says there are two emergencies in the future
02:40:00 future again is that a valid observation yes and scrolling back up to 5.1 is volunteers which refers to internal volunteers at
02:40:13 which refers to internal volunteers at obkc and the ability to do so which i'm not going to touch upon the topic of leadership was also high in a list of respondents in the debrief
02:40:24 a list of respondents in the debrief have you in fact exhibited these documents so you're familiar with it is that correct yes perhaps we could go to page 13 please which is annex a where there's a number of annexes setting out
02:40:36 there's a number of annexes setting out different departments and what they say in their submissions and i'm going to help us navigate because there's a lot of text here if we go down to theme leadership which
02:40:47 if we go down to theme leadership which is in blue and this is what it says the majority of comments focused on the lack of direction and visibility of senior management immediately after the
02:40:58 senior management immediately after the fire
02:40:59 fire some comments indicated that this may have hindered the ability to provide an efficient coordinated response to residents that's the summary yes do you agree with that summary yes
02:41:11 do you agree with that summary yes and these are some of the the comments which come from or bk staff within this report a sense of panic prevailed needed some clear positive and calm
02:41:23 needed some clear positive and calm leadership
02:41:26 next comment senior leadership across the country seems slow to coordinate action and make decisions this meant that frontline staff were struggling to get answers support questions
02:41:36 questions or faced different responses depending on who to talk to something which you touched upon an immediate response on the ground i felt it took too long to be deployed by which
02:41:47 it took too long to be deployed by which time we had lost the trust of the residents and community lack of leaders to send staff out in the first few hours do you agree with that latter point
02:41:59 do you agree with that latter point i think i've already stated that we we in
02:42:05 in hindsight we should have we should have been been there earlier and that's something which is borne out in this report and and finally the last two points comments also indicated that the lack of communication
02:42:16 indicated that the lack of communication between management and staff led to some staff being unsure of what they should have been doing or how they could have helped more effectively work on your own intuition if i had to be wasted to be told by my manager to go
02:42:28 be wasted to be told by my manager to go and help i never would have we have a culture being told what to do and that just crumbled in the wake of the fire
02:42:40 again these are comments from members of rbkc which are collated in this report do you disagree with anything we just said there
02:42:53 i don't recognise all of it i have to say um but this this the whole approach to do to undertake this
02:43:04 to undertake this process was for it to provide the opportunity for staff to share their views in a very frank way yes and you've shared your views today the
02:43:16 and you've shared your views today the last point i wanted to draw out is that page 15 please
02:43:22 [Applause] and
02:43:28 it's under theme coordination of processes and procedures if we see setting up the back setting up the beck was okay
02:43:39 setting up the beck was okay but communications between the town hall and the westward were difficult and uncoordinated it needed a senior or bkc manager on the ground at the west way to instruct bec what was going on
02:43:52 what was going on what's your views in relation to that comment
02:43:55 comment i would agree with that comment i mean what i would say is i'm aware that within the west way during that first week that senior managers were deployed to the west way so it wasn't that there
02:44:06 to the west way so it wasn't that there were no senior managers within the west way during the first three days but i don't think the senior managers were deployed to the west way perhaps
02:44:15 perhaps as soon as they as they should have been as quickly as they should be and i think that was recognized within the gold group on the first day it continues for summary furthermore
02:44:27 it continues for summary furthermore some comments stated that it did not feel that any formal process approach or protocol was followed quote at no time did it appear that we were following an emergency procedure
02:44:38 were following an emergency procedure that was already in place and perhaps focusing on the last points there needs to be a quick escalation to seek support from regional and central governments this has been noticeably absent i
02:44:51 this has been noticeably absent i thought that council would have contingency arrangements that london would have another plan and it would be a national plan i saw no evidence of any just using that term
02:45:02 just using that term escalation we dealt with the advice some time ago on on the 14th of june that david curry gave to nicolas holgate that the incident was too big for rbkc to deal with is on its own
02:45:15 to deal with is on its own finally perhaps you've answered this already but do you think that rbkc should have escalated sooner seeking support
02:45:22 support from
02:45:23 from london gold um
02:45:26 um i think as i mentioned earlier i i didn't i wasn't of the view on the the morning of the 14th when i met with nicholas
02:45:34 nicholas that necessarily the london local authority should be gold should be enacted at that point but i was of the view 24 hours later
02:45:45 24 hours later okay
02:45:47 okay mr president very grateful for your patience
02:45:50 patience what we're going to do now is just pause for a few minutes there may be some questions to to consider if from cp's or those who are watching but perhaps subject to you mr chairman we could come
02:46:01 subject to you mr chairman we could come back
02:46:02 back in five minutes time and see if there's five and it's going to be long enough do you think i think we'll see if i need more time i can communicate well mr presley we have a break at this point to enable council to take stock and also
02:46:13 enable council to take stock and also to allow other people to suggest questions that perhaps we should be putting to you so we'll come back we'll break now we'll come back at five to one
02:46:22 to one and we'll see then whether there are more questions for you thank you very much all right okay thank you very much would you go with the usher please
02:46:39 well i've taken you at your word mr keating we'll say five to one but if you need more time you can let us know yes thank you very much thank you very much
02:53:43 all right mr priestley well we'll see if there are any more questions for you all right yes mr keating just one topic to deal with so i'm sure we can deal with it before the luncheon adjournment mr priestley it really
02:53:55 adjournment mr priestley it really follows on from that topic of escalation which we touched upon just a few moments ago escalation seeking external support such as london gold and
02:54:06 such as london gold and you'd given evidence that your view was by the morning at 15 to june that or bkc needed that greater help you told us that twice correct yes when you arrived in on the morning of
02:54:18 when you arrived in on the morning of the 15th of june did your hand over with david curry and saw the challenges which you faced did you raise that view that you'd formed with anybody i didn't no
02:54:30 i didn't no so not david curry not tony red pats no no not nikki's hole gates and
02:54:36 and why did you not raise it
02:54:42 i didn't feel experienced enough to raise that i didn't feel
02:54:54 i just i didn't feel i had the experience to raise that to and it would need to be to nicolas i didn't feel that i i had the experience to be able to
02:55:06 i had the experience to be able to this is my first incident yes i'm inexperienced within this role i didn't feel that i had the mandate and the place to say to the chief executive
02:55:18 to the chief executive that he should change his tactics you mentioned your experience and we touched on that already you also mentioned deference earlier on in your answers to questions
02:55:30 answers to questions did you feel that that sort of deference was a factor which
02:55:36 which prevented you and your mind speaking up yes i do
02:55:50 and finally mr priestley is there anything else that you wanted to mention to inquiry in relation to events
02:55:57 events on the 14th and 15th and 16th of june thereafter which may be relevant to its inquiries
02:56:05 i wanted to express my
02:56:10 my sincerest condolences
02:56:14 to the boer even survivors
02:56:18 and the residents of kansas and chelsea and everyone who's been affected by this tragedy i've um
02:56:31 forgive me i've devoted my entire career to
02:56:38 serving the people of countington chelsea
02:56:41 chelsea and it's been an honor to do so and it continues to be an honor and a privilege to do so i'd like to apologize for my failings
02:56:52 my failings and to say how very deeply
02:56:57 i'm profoundly sorry i am how about this incident i haven't got anything else to say mr priestley thank you so much again for attending
02:57:08 thank you so much again for attending and assisting us with our inquiries and we're very grateful for your participation and that's all we have to ask today
02:57:19 today yes well mr priestley is right that i should thank you on behalf of all three members of the panel we very much been assisted by your evidence it's very helpful to hear what you have to say
02:57:30 helpful to hear what you have to say and so we're very grateful to you for coming along to tell us what you can thank you thank you very much indeed and you're now free to go thank you
02:57:38 thank you [Music]
02:57:47 thank you mr keating we have another witness but not until two o'clock that's correct
02:57:52 correct right thank you very much two o'clock peace
02:57:56 peace [Music]
02:58:04 you