David Kerry, RBKC Emergency Planning Manager, gives evidence about his overnight shifts as Council Silver, admitting he was exhausted and 'not firing on all cylinders'. Mark Sawyer noted he was 'traumatized' and 'not in a position to offer strategic direction'.
00:00:24 would you ask Mr Kerry to come back in please
00:00:27 please [Music]
00:00:33 [Music]
00:00:38 right Mr Kerry all ready to carry on I hope yes thank you thank you very much yes thank you Mr chairman Mr Kerry before you left to go home on the 14th of June 2017 do you remember speaking to somebody called Gary Locker who was head
00:00:51 somebody called Gary Locker who was head of resilience at the city of London incorporation uh I certainly know Gary Locker very well at that time a professional colleague I don't recall having a conversation let's go to go
00:01:03 having a conversation let's go to go 50238 please
00:01:12 238 now um this is an email from Gary Locker on the 14th of June 2017 at 10:35 in the morning to Peter lley John baradel Marian Hearn Who's name you
00:01:24 baradel Marian Hearn Who's name you referred to yesterday and Morris and Benjamin
00:01:27 Benjamin Morris uh you're not copied in on it and but he says this as we speak spoken to David kery who has clearly been very busy in his words they have a handle on it and at this stage do not require any
00:01:41 it and at this stage do not require any further assistance Beck is clearly set up they do not have an SRC in the sense we know but more of an evacuation Center which may turn into a family and friends as the response and Recovery operation
00:01:52 as the response and Recovery operation continues David has my direct number and as he goes away now to get some sleep I've made an offer of our crisis support if you requires at a later stage currently thankful for the offer but Decline and I will speak with Sharon
00:02:05 Decline and I will speak with Sharon importantly no response from Central required at present we will continue to monitor now um now this email was sent at
00:02:15 at 10:35 now we've already heard that you were you had already left or were about to leave at this point do you remember having a conversation however with da
00:02:26 having a conversation however with da with um Gary locker before 10:35 on that morning I do not have any recollection of that conversation I'm clearly accept that it take place because of the evidence which is
00:02:38 evidence which is here um M Mr car just wait a moment if you would um Mr chairman my live note isn't working and I don't know whether nor nor is mine I'm just going to refresh it to see if
00:02:51 it um no no
00:02:57 um no no yours m
00:03:00 yours m no mine isn't working either I'm afraid right well um we're better to stop aren't we for a moment yes I we have to see if we can get it sorted
00:03:11 have to see if we can get it sorted out um the indications I'm getting are that it's not necessarily a quick fix so um Mr car I'm I'm sorry to say
00:03:22 fix so um Mr car I'm I'm sorry to say that having got you into the room asked you one question I afraid we're going to have to ask you to get out again because he's got a technical problem as you can tell so we go back to the witness room
00:03:38 please right Mr M well I think we best things for us to retire and um yes we'll wait for the Usher to come and tell us that it's been solved very well there it
00:03:49 that it's been solved very well there it is think that's all we can do for the moment I think so Mr chairman yes thank you thank you very
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00:13:35 well Mr milit I understand that the transcript is already back in order so yes so I'm told I shall ask uh Mr Kerry to come back in and we'll
00:13:53 resume Mr carry less of a delay than I'd feared at one stage so we're ready to carry on
00:13:59 carry on thank you Mr chairman um Mr Curry can we please have back on the screen G50 238 and the email from Gary Locker to uh Peter lizzly and John baradel and others
00:14:10 Peter lizzly and John baradel and others on at 10:35 on the 14th of June uh We've read the text of it um can I ask you in the back against the background as we've seen from your log that you'd advised Mr Holgate either earlier in the morning or
00:14:22 Holgate either earlier in the morning or at 10:00 that the incident was bigger than any one local Authority in London could handle and the consideration should have been given to to Mutual Aid against that background what had changed if anything to lead you to tell uh uh Mr
00:14:37 if anything to lead you to tell uh uh Mr Locker as is reflected here in this email that rbkc had a handle on it and at this stage do not require any further assistance as he records I can only
00:14:48 assistance as he records I can only assume that I was reflecting the um decision of the chief executive at that particular point that we were as an authority dealing with it right that tells us that you had you had heard him
00:15:01 tells us that you had you had heard him say no in some form or other and by passing that on is this right to Gary Locker um that's an assumption that we can make as I say I I don't have a recollection of the words being spoken
00:15:13 recollection of the words being spoken but clearly I was reflecting the bur's position in that discussion at that point it was the accurate position in fact that rbkc did not have a handle on the situation as of 10:35 that morning
00:15:30 I think at that point the people in the back so we're talking about the housing social care people Laura Johnson um an Stewart Redmond and others I know that
00:15:41 Stewart Redmond and others I know that sort of they were all looking at these things and we've seen from other evidence that they were already talking at that point about consolidating rest centers and things like that um the Beck was getting people in I
00:15:55 that um the Beck was getting people in I believed and I still think that that was a big enough incident that the authority should have got in the advice that I thought I could
00:16:06 got in the advice that I thought I could see why at a gold level at that point they might think that the burrow was starting to deal with that but I'm making an assumption on somebody else's behalf there I'm aware that you know our
00:16:17 behalf there I'm aware that you know our plans at that point in terms of the CMP to some extent and others to some extent were in place and that later on gold meetings happened that were minuted and
00:16:28 meetings happened that were minuted and that decision were maken by the Strategic team at that time as per the plans um I had that emotional View at that point that this was bigger than we needed I understand looking at this
00:16:41 needed I understand looking at this email here clearly I didn't relate that to Mr Locker at the time so I must have been reflecting whatever that outcome of that 10:00 meeting was
00:16:50 was um as for when the authority should W should have called in that was very much a strategic command's decision I gave my
00:17:01 a strategic command's decision I gave my advice as the emergency planning professional but the decision strategically was very much that of the of the Strategic team the Gold group now I'd like to move to when you came back for your NE your next shift um which was
00:17:15 for your NE your next shift um which was uh the evening of the 14th of June and into the morning of the 15th of June yes yes uh and I think you came back as you put it at 2000 hours yes I believe so
00:17:28 put it at 2000 hours yes I believe so but I I think in your project interview project Athena interview you said it was 6:00 in the evening 1800 hours yes I which is my G gut instinct it was more
00:17:39 which is my G gut instinct it was more likely to be 8:00 rather than 6:00 um that just seems to be rather early so um I I can't explain why I said 6 P p.m. in the Athen interview my gut reaction is that the 8:00 reference would have been
00:17:50 that the 8:00 reference would have been much more likely now if you get it rbk30 60425 we can look at your notebook and if we go to page 2 two in that
00:18:02 document that's rbk 3 30
00:18:07 60425 um your entry there starts at 1700 hours m is that well can you explain that timing where you at the back at that point or were you you could as it were working up and start I I I I
00:18:20 were working up and start I I I I believe that would have been at home right I see so you traveled in after this point mhm yes right um and what was your role at this point at the time I made these notes I
00:18:33 point at the time I made these notes I was off duty so these might have been me trying to just get some thoughts down and together my role when I arrived back at the Beck was to get a Handover from Stuart Priestley and to become the
00:18:44 Stuart Priestley and to become the overnight Council Sila right and uh were Stuart Priestley and Rebecca Blackburn still working when you arrived I believe so do you know what time Mr Priestley left I don't he says about 1:00 that's
00:18:55 left I don't he says about 1:00 that's par 42 Page 9 would that be about right um I I'm sorry I I can't recall um if you look at my Athena report you will see that I was frankly not firing on all
00:19:07 see that I was frankly not firing on all cylinders even then and Rebecca Blackburn I think left a little after Mr Priestley St I'll take your your word for that well um you were there I wasn't but the documents show that okay so I
00:19:19 but the documents show that okay so I wasn't there at 1: p.m. I was there at much later in the evening um now what did you consider at that stage when you took over as Council Sila the main prior priorities for you and the Beck to have
00:19:30 priorities for you and the Beck to have been for your shift so my recollection of that is the Beck which was quite well staffed at that particular point from from from individuals which were still
00:19:41 from from individuals which were still receiving phone calls and emails about information and passing that out my role was really there just to be a decision maker should a decision need to be made
00:19:52 maker should a decision need to be made I didn't have any brief about initiating work I didn't have any brief about developing any issues that were there it was very much a watching brief and that you know in the silent hours of the
00:20:03 you know in the silent hours of the morning when all other senior managers would have gone home uh simply to be a a senior person there um should a decision make uh require right and looking at the
00:20:14 make uh require right and looking at the page in front of us on the screen you can see there are various topics Finance residence donations no more Salvation Army Beck leelo were those the kinds of things that you were anticipating having
00:20:25 things that you were anticipating having to deal with during your forthcoming Council silver shift no I think those are more thoughts about me as an emergency planning officer wondering whether the authority had been dealing
00:20:36 whether the authority had been dealing with some of these things so I certainly had no um uh thought that I would be dealing with mass fatalities or Bill scheme or cash for residence at that point um whether these were things that
00:20:47 point um whether these were things that I had picked up that had been done or whether these were things that I was just speculating myself as an EPO I'm not sure but they weren't a list of activities I was expecting to be engaged in do you remember whether you had
00:20:58 in do you remember whether you had contact with Nicholas Holgate once you came back onto shift whether it was at 6:00 p.m. or 8:00
00:21:05 p.m. I don't recall so let's look at your handwritten notes um uh at page 27 two pages on if we can please in this
00:21:16 two pages on if we can please in this document um and you can see at the very top of the of the page I think it says consideration or considerations and then underneath that
00:21:28 considerations and then underneath that there something which I don't think we need to
00:21:30 need to decipher uh and then Holgate 1836 and then there are two bullets underneath that John baradel and what looks like John John O'Brien John O'Brien and then gold meeting 11:00
00:21:44 O'Brien and then gold meeting 11:00 tomorrow Tomorrow Will sprinklers become a topic Mark Sawyer at 8:30 did you have a or do you remember having a discussion with Mr
00:21:56 having a discussion with Mr Holgate at 1836 I I don't recall having that is that a refence by notes certainly is obviously a reference of that right so that that
00:22:07 a reference of that right so that that that indicates that I would take that as saying that Nicholas Holgate at 1836 told me that that I and from that I would infer that John baradel and John O'Brien uh were coming to the Gold group
00:22:18 O'Brien uh were coming to the Gold group meeting tomorrow morning that would be on the Thursday morning um and that Mark Sawyer would be in at 8:30 Mark Sawyer of course being the the liaison officer for the local
00:22:30 the the liaison officer for the local Authority gold was Mr Holgate at the Beck when you came back to it I'm I I I I look I'm I'm sorry I'm in this position that I'm relying on whatever
00:22:41 position that I'm relying on whatever notes you put in front of me I you'll see from my Athena report there I had had the night before 2 hours sleep before doing extended morning I
00:22:53 sleep before doing extended morning I went home to try and sleep that was almost
00:22:56 almost impossible um it was difficult to get any length of sleep in that time so by the time I did come back I was already you know frankly
00:23:07 come back I was already you know frankly shattered I make no bones about it I was you know not an alert person that night I unfortunate that in the individuals we had in the back there was solid Stern
00:23:20 had in the back there was solid Stern getting on with calls and emails and things like that I recall that on the odd occasion I was asked to sanction something and I was able to give that and I think you'll see the odd log entry where David kery said yes or or Council
00:23:31 where David kery said yes or or Council Sila said such and such um I didn't have a job of work to do should we say that night as I say I wasn't creating the next set of tactics I wasn't initiating
00:23:42 next set of tactics I wasn't initiating anything I wasn't developing my role was just to sit there and if somebody needed to speak to me to do so but with all of that you know my mental state at the
00:23:53 that you know my mental state at the point was you know very difficult and I am you know fortunately we have some notes where I was able to write things down because we've seen that I am hugely
00:24:04 down because we've seen that I am hugely embarrassed and really sorry because I want to do my best for you but I I I'm sitting here now after all of this time even at the Athena time I think you know that that night is not well in my memory
00:24:19 that that night is not well in my memory and I'm I'm desperately sad for that I want to give you every assistance I possibly can but I you know I can see we're going to spend the next bit with you asking well you said this and you've
00:24:30 you asking well you said this and you've written this can you and I'm going to I'm sorry I'm going to be sitting there most likely saying I don't recall right and I really apologize for that that's okay well in the light of that maybe we can take it a little bit more quickly based on on the documents um but there's
00:24:44 based on on the documents um but there's no discussion identified here between you and Mr Holgate about seeking Mutual Aid or activating the gold resolution can we assume that there wasn't I would I think we can assume
00:24:57 wasn't I would I think we can assume that yes uh I mean by that time I think Mr Holgate had had two gold meetings so therefore they had the strategies in place that they were dealing with so therefore any issue about Mutual Aid would have been something to have been dealt with at that
00:25:12 level
00:25:18 uh the the reference to sprinklers will sprinklers become a
00:25:24 topic bearing in mind what you said about your recollection can we take it that you had a discussion with Mr Holgate at that time about about sprinklers I would take it
00:25:36 about about sprinklers I would take it that Nicholas Holgate in telling me where things were up to at that point told me that the for the gold meeting the following day sprinklers would be a topic and I wouldn't take it it any more
00:25:47 topic and I wouldn't take it it any more than that why what did you understand about the relevance of sprinklers becoming a topic in the middle of a conversation about contingency planning in the light of This Disaster I would
00:25:58 in the light of This Disaster I would take that that that was something that Nicholas Holgate had on his mind and was an issue and if that was an issue that was going to come up because I think sprinklers was probably already in the news at that point did the building
00:26:09 news at that point did the building house sprinklers or not um so Nicholas Holgate wasn't just managing an emergency he was managing the authority and all aspects of that so therefore at that gold group meeting you know there would have been all sorts of things not
00:26:20 would have been all sorts of things not just the Emergency Management response that he would be dealing with not that I would need to deal with so I would I would take it that he probably told me that in that context why why would it be relevant why would sprinklers be
00:26:32 relevant why would sprinklers be remotely relevant to what what you were doing which was contingency managing a contingency response and remotely relevant to his conversation with you in which he was engaged in the same thing
00:26:44 which he was engaged in the same thing well we're two people in an adverse situation having a conversation about where things are it's of no surprise to me if Mr Holgate happened to mention that or frankly anything else that was on his mind um maybe I haven't explained
00:26:57 on his mind um maybe I haven't explained the question prop how would the discussion about sprinklers help the bereaved or the survivors I think you're trying to take me into areas that are beyond my role as an emergency planning officer on this
00:27:08 an emergency planning officer on this particular occasion were there any particular actions that Mr Holgate asked you to progress if they're in my note they'll be there otherwise we fall back to the
00:27:20 be there otherwise we fall back to the answer I gave a moment ago let's have a look then below the part I've shown you it says 4 NH and just help me decipher this if you would in morning in morning annotated agenda and then I think
00:27:32 annotated agenda and then I think meeting what does that say meeting meeting agenda with main topics and elements to give a propuls propose uh something agenda looks like
00:27:44 uh something agenda looks like propulsive yes which obviously isn't a word a
00:27:51 um probably something that intended to say a draft agenda or a a what's the word right potential no you can't decipher it I can't no any more than I can and then underneath that
00:28:03 more than I can and then underneath that something something group recovery strategy group right humanitarian discussion Community engagement right and then Beck and ERC Staffing rotors
00:28:17 and then Beck and ERC Staffing rotors task around the table for action in the morning right
00:28:30 and then over the page to page 28 at the top EMA look email to somebody email to counselors for Nick Holgate and offers of help
00:28:42 for Nick Holgate and offers of help right what what's that
00:28:44 about I don't know right and then beyond below that rbkc gold overnight en Holgate can be called is that called can be called brief him on
00:28:55 that called can be called brief him on 1930 gold call right so C can we take it that the matters you've recorded there were matters so far as you were concerned Mr Holgate
00:29:06 far as you were concerned Mr Holgate wanted you to progress yes then if we turn to the reference there to 1930 that I think was the fifth scg of that day wasn't it I'll take your word for that
00:29:17 wasn't it I'll take your word for that then there was one at 5:00 a.m. 6:30 8:00 a.m. uh and 2: p.m. and this I think was now 7:30 the 5ifth one um were you cited on or aware of the actions and
00:29:28 you cited on or aware of the actions and minutes of the the previous meeting the one at 2 p.m. I don't think I was at that point let's go to the minute minutes for the 1930 meeting lfb1
00:29:42 9322 we can see that if we go please to page
00:29:49 seven uh we can see the attendees and we can see there that Rebecca Blackburn Tony redpath as gold and David krier's silver were
00:30:01 krier's silver were there uh if we look then at the previous actions update on page two action three towards the bottom of page two we see it
00:30:13 two we see it says uh it says uh rbk action three NHS England to provide update and then first bullet point says rbkc to confirm numbers in grenfell Tower rbkc need to
00:30:26 numbers in grenfell Tower rbkc need to speak to the people on seen the numbers have increased they need to clarify how many persons were in building and how many people they are trying to accommodate so is it right that that lack of clarity as to the number of
00:30:38 lack of clarity as to the number of people affected by the fire was a was a was a theme at this point 7:30 on the 14th uh in the evening but a constant theme throughout that day so far as you
00:30:49 theme throughout that day so far as you were I think it would have been yes now the phrase need to speak to people on scene did you think at the time that that suggested that rbkc themselves didn't have a full grasp of the numbers
00:31:00 didn't have a full grasp of the numbers of people affected I I think that's reasonable to to look at that yes but there no lelow at the scene you could talk to to get a constant running picture the local Authority leaan officers at the scene were a part of the
00:31:12 officers at the scene were a part of the scene Silver coordinating group so they were not out on the ground they were with fire police ambulance and other Silvers and they were the leaon between
00:31:23 Silvers and they were the leaon between the council and that scene should those Emergency Services ask anything from there so there role was not going out to other centers and things like that um I would have expected at this point that
00:31:34 would have expected at this point that the team's being put in place before I left early in the morning by Laura Johnson and others would have been in a position particularly housing and tno between them but the liaison officers were at with the Emergency Services it
00:31:46 were at with the Emergency Services it was not their role to be going out and doing other things but some lelos were weren't they going from um rest center to rest center in that case if they were additional people from the loo team
00:31:57 additional people from the loo team perhaps being t by before I got there to do that perhaps but we still should have had a Lelo or lelos permanently with the Emergency Services even if others might have been tasked to do other work that
00:32:08 have been tasked to do other work that being the case why was there a need for rbkc to speak to people on scene given that you had L on scene Willa is not reporting I I don't know I I I can I can I can
00:32:22 I I don't know I I I can I can I can surmise here that probably you know you want a situation with the tower you have residents you have residents away there are visitors I can imagine
00:32:33 away there are visitors I can imagine the confusion of trying to work out exactly who was in the tower I'm quite sure for the Emergency Services that was quite crucial information to know how many people were in the tower um but I can also appreciate under any
00:32:44 can also appreciate under any circumstances on any day of the week if you try and say in any particular building how many people were in it on a particular time you know it's very difficult so I can see why there might have been a need for people to go out
00:32:56 have been a need for people to go out and start asking for people you know do you know was in the tower you know are you certain about this um um but I I can't do any more than sort of put a what I think is a common sense approach
00:33:07 what I think is a common sense approach to what might be let's go to over the page please to page three section three where there is a police update MPS provided an update uh and then the second bullet point it says have had
00:33:19 second bullet point it says have had some issues at rest centers with tensions due to people not being fully informed of what rest the rest centers provide this is taking up a considerable amount of resources and the MPS are requesting rbkc to improve their
00:33:32 requesting rbkc to improve their messaging did did you consider did you know that there were issues with the messaging and Communications to the public on the 14th or had been during the course of that day I don't think I
00:33:44 the course of that day I don't think I was specifically aware of specific incidences right was this not a theme that you were greeted with when you came back into the Beck in that night in that
00:33:55 evening I really don't know
00:34:01 if we go to action 11 then on page
00:34:07 four you can see towards the foot of the page it says future communications to provide Clarity of messaging to Partners and the public what is provided by The Authority at the various reception
00:34:18 Authority at the various reception centers and do you know what was done to progress that I don't um you know we had a comm's team in I would assume matters were being being referred to them by Nicholas Holgate and other Gold group
00:34:29 Nicholas Holgate and other Gold group members but I don't know the detail of that was one of the problems that you were facing that for many of those affected adversely by the fire English was not their first
00:34:41 was not their first language I imagine that might be the case as you say that I do you know what was done to facilitate Communications with those um those individuals where English was not
00:34:53 those individuals where English was not their first language uh no and I would have been expecting as I am now that any matters to deal with the communications policy would have been the matter for the communications team and their leader and with whatever directions that gold
00:35:04 and with whatever directions that gold were giving them that wasn't something for me as an emergency planner to be dealing with can we go back to page three fourth bullet point of the police update middle of page um it says uh
00:35:17 page um it says uh the
00:35:19 the uh it says um David Kerry confirmed this is the third bullet point M that identification tabards were being delivered to rest centers for their staff why were they not taken by staff
00:35:30 staff why were they not taken by staff to the rest centers with them why do they have to be delivered at this point in the day so we had in the control center a number I think getting on for 200
00:35:43 think getting on for 200 tabards a blue color with the bur Crest on front and back um they were always held there so that if we had some sort of event anywhere that s appropriate numbers could be taken out to identify
00:35:55 numbers could be taken out to identify staff within that so they were were there I don't know why it's that decision wasn't taken during the course of the day to take them out earlier um all I can say is that having
00:36:07 earlier um all I can say is that having obviously got the message that they weren't out there clearly I was able to to to to take action to make sure they were in the next bullet point it says the capacity of the friends and family
00:36:18 the capacity of the friends and family reception centers has been discussed and another one may be opened tomorrow now in relation to the one ffrc that was open which I think was the one opened by by 3:00 a.m. 3:00 p.m. I'm
00:36:31 opened by by 3:00 a.m. 3:00 p.m. I'm sorry um at the Salvation Army there's evidence from the police to the effect that it was closed later that evening at 2205 because there were no rbkc available to sta it did you know
00:36:45 rbkc available to sta it did you know that I don't know whether I knew that it may be in the log as to whether I was told or
00:36:52 not yeah well let's look at um let's look at at your notebook this time I want to look at a transcript of it because we have that and this is at
00:37:03 because we have that and this is at rbk30
00:37:06 rbk30 60425 underscore capital
00:37:11 T and if we go to page 38 in that
00:37:23 document um yes you can see uh it says ffrc illegible day Center PTO Bell Road will MPS keep it open and there's a tick and close 2200 reopen 800 to
00:37:37 and close 2200 reopen 800 to 2200 TG TCG tactical command group sorry tactical coordination group 2330 ffrc and Stuart that should be
00:37:49 2330 ffrc and Stuart that should be Stuart Stuart Megan Hussein um now that's obviously pretty tur stuff but does that did you know that the the friends and family Reception Center would that there was
00:38:01 Reception Center would that there was would not be open overnight that to me indicates that the the center was going to close at 10: and then reopen in the morning would that be
00:38:12 then reopen in the morning would that be normal would it be normal for an ffrc to shut
00:38:16 shut overnight in the context of the other types of incidents for which these plans were were mainly written I've described in the past um it would not be unusual for a center like that to operate an
00:38:27 for a center like that to operate an extended day but to not be open overnight um so so that wouldn't surprise
00:38:35 surprise me um in on the question of the tabards I think you say in your statement that the idea was that the council staff at site could be identified but you also say and we don't need to look at it but the staff were
00:38:46 need to look at it but the staff were later told to remove any uniform due to perceive threats to staff that's something I was told that's not my decision I think I was told at one point so by the way staff have been told that
00:38:57 so by the way staff have been told that right do you think that was a useful thing to
00:39:00 thing to do well all I can do is go on the information I was given if the information was the staff were being threatened then that would seem to be a good safety issue for staff to enable those staff to maintain their role out
00:39:11 those staff to maintain their role out there and I'm very aware that there's a lot of discourse about were the community you know threatening or not all I can say is if the authority received the information of that point
00:39:23 received the information of that point it would be a proper thing to do to ensure safety of staff nonetheless I think you were aware because you said it in your statement of paragraph 98 that they were staff were present but not always visible yes I have been told that
00:39:36 always visible yes I have been told that staff at one point had been asked to remove their ID tags right the the effect though would mean that people like ham shuk wouldn't be able to identify or pick out in a crowd
00:39:49 able to identify or pick out in a crowd uh an official from the council yes if you're out on the street particularly you wouldn't see that um in a Center of course then that might be rather different and people might be
00:40:00 rather different and people might be more visible in that respect but certainly in terms of being out on the street you might not see that if that were the case did did you yourself go to any of these centers rest centers or did you go to the ffrc no I was fully
00:40:11 you go to the ffrc no I was fully occupied at the Town Hall why didn't you why didn't you take take the chance to because my job as Council Sila was at the Town Hall not to go out and about that's why we had other people out and
00:40:22 that's why we had other people out and about right now if we go please to page four again um can we see the bullet point below action nine I'm say sorry back to the the minutes of the local Authority
00:40:32 Authority update um this is the local Authority update action uh nine uh and uh it says they plan to close two rest centers this evening and have Westway as their only open rest
00:40:44 have Westway as their only open rest center rbkc are putting plans in place overnight for recovery and the humanitarian assistance aspects um the two rest centers that were as it were Consolidated is this right were the
00:40:56 Consolidated is this right were the Clement James Center and the rugby portabella trust rpt I can't answer that directly whatever rest centers were open during the day would have been the ones that would been closed to consolidate I mean
00:41:08 would been closed to consolidate I mean it is certainly suggested at the 2:00 the previous s scg um under the local Authority update that that those are the centers that would be closed and Consolidated then i' accept that yes do
00:41:20 Consolidated then i' accept that yes do you know when the decision uh and and why the decision was made for Westway to become the single consolidated rest center uh no I don't know the decision- making for that because those decisions
00:41:31 making for that because those decisions were taken by the people that were there at the time um in the Gold group and others um I can look at that and say Westway was a very large venue with lots of facilities and given the scale of the
00:41:43 of facilities and given the scale of the services required a bigger place would have been better and clearly from the services the local Authority and others providing services
00:41:54 Authority and others providing services at a rest center easier to concentrate on one venue rather than several certainly when you're trying to get a definitive list of who is receiving services and to channel that through
00:42:06 services and to channel that through better to have one venue than several why the Westway I imagine they probably volunteered it but certainly in that part of North Kensington um that was Far and Away the largest venue with
00:42:19 and Away the largest venue with facilities for people as a sports center with toilets and showers and a variety of rooms and facilities and what have you so I was not at all surprised to see that now uh as you can see as I've read
00:42:32 that now uh as you can see as I've read to you the second bullet point refers to plans being put in place overnight for recovery and the humanitarian assistance aspect uh what plans were being put in place in in those respects I really
00:42:44 place in in those respects I really don't know because all of this work of course was happening outside of the Beck so other people all sorts of people had other work streams to go and I don't know the detail of that you don't know the detail do you know who said at this
00:42:55 the detail do you know who said at this meeting that I'll be DC were putting these plans in place overnight um I don't know it wouldn't have been me because I simply wouldn't have had that information now let's turn to what
00:43:06 information now let's turn to what happened after the this meeting at 7:30 1930 that evening did you brief Nicholas Holgate after that
00:43:16 meeting was Nicholas in the meeting I I presume not because you've asked me the question but can I just confirm was well let's look at yes let's look at page I think it's seven and the answer is no
00:43:31 no all right so Tony gold red path was taking the gold for the evening presumably that's what it says there yeah but did you brief Nicholas did anybody brief Nicholas Holgate I I I I I
00:43:44 anybody brief Nicholas Holgate I I I I I can't believe that I did I looking at this would have expected Tony redpath to have that conversation with Nicholas um there's a reference I think we saw in your handwritten note we can
00:43:56 we saw in your handwritten note we can get back to it if you want to that he asked you to brief him after this meeting hence the question do you remember whether you did uh no I can't remember
00:44:07 remember um I can't remember I'm sorry
00:44:11 sorry but did you raise the issue of obtaining further assistance again with Nicholas hillgate after this meeting I don't think I did why is that because he was running his Gold group and that was
00:44:23 running his Gold group and that was their role they had all the information and they were Al in contact with John baradel and others so from my point of view that's where that decision would take place and they were the people with
00:44:34 take place and they were the people with the information to know whether they would need that or not did you have a conversation with Tony redpath about that matter given that he had assumed the role of council gold I don't recall
00:44:45 the role of council gold I don't recall right G given that the issue had clearly Arisen just before you left about about um seeking Mutual aid from other burs whether or not invoking the London Gold
00:44:56 whether or not invoking the London Gold resolution was it not your job to revisit that question once you came back in as Council silver that evening no I don't think
00:45:06 think so it was my job to to rely upon whatever the decisions the Gold group had taken that
00:45:14 day what about in your um I don't know what the word is but non-old silver or Bron's role as emergency planning adviser to to rbkc I
00:45:25 emergency planning adviser to to rbkc I think at that stage of that operation you know whatever was in place was in place and and was running so I can't think that I had I don't think I Revisited that discussion with Nicholas
00:45:36 Revisited that discussion with Nicholas did you do yourself do anything or take any decisions during the course of your overnight shift overnight 14th and into the 15th June to address the problems that would or issues that were discussed
00:45:47 that would or issues that were discussed at the 1930 scg meeting the notes of which we have here um I don't think I as an individual in that room was doing anything of that type the Beck itself had all sorts of things they were doing
00:45:59 had all sorts of things they were doing and my Beck manager Jack Dunton was very capably managing all of that and just coming to me on the occation that he needed to if we go to your statement please your first statement page
00:46:11 please your first statement page 18 can we look please at paragraph 83 you say there I returned to the town hall at around 6:00 on Wednesday 14th of June 2017 and worked through the night
00:46:22 June 2017 and worked through the night in the Beck when I came in there were about a dozen members of the Beck staff who had all been been there all afternoon some are coming in for the evening shift at that point my job was overnight Council Silva and head of Beck
00:46:34 overnight Council Silva and head of Beck this involved me tidying up the log and getting everything ready for the next day I was a watching brief overnight I didn't dynamically organize anything overnight we were not initiating work during the evening I was getting calls
00:46:45 during the evening I was getting calls from the new Lelo and calls from the West wave regarding staffing issues and also taking part in telephone conferences updating information and feeding back I was celled overnight for the first two nights after of the fire
00:46:58 the first two nights after of the fire yes now uh why did you not dynamically as you put it sort out those of the problems that you could at Staffing the rest centers and getting information out
00:47:09 rest centers and getting information out to relatives and Friends of those who were in the tower what might be my understanding would have been that those work streams were being dealt with by the groups within the council that were
00:47:20 the groups within the council that were taking part of those work streams so housing uh social care and others so I come back to this Beck not being the control center that decided everything but a coordination Center of information
00:47:32 but a coordination Center of information and different elements of the counil services organizing their responses to whatever the goal strategy was so the whole business about Staffing of rest centers and the Staffing of any other
00:47:44 centers and the Staffing of any other centers were those work streams these were not a work stream of the Beck to manage right who was in charge overall charge of the staff of Staffing the rest
00:47:55 charge of the staff of Staffing the rest centers and ensuring the the visibility of rbk sta staff at those places um I don't have a name for that my assumption as we're talking here is it would have been the the either the humanitarian
00:48:07 been the the either the humanitarian assistance Steering group that was being set up or as I left it in that morning there was adult social care Sue Redmond and there was housing Laura Johnson and I would assume that somewhere within that part of the structure of the
00:48:19 that part of the structure of the council that's where that activity Li that can't be right with great respect can it because the Halo and the HG was not formed until the morning of the 15th okay but there were still people of
00:48:30 okay but there were still people of those departments involved in the backck on the morning when I was there and I assume that work would have been carrying on it wasn't my job as I saw it at that point to be trying to do that overnight well I'm just trying to
00:48:42 overnight well I'm just trying to understand this you you say that the Beck certainly by the evening of the 14th had become the coordination Center which I understand but but but who was in charge of the work streams as you
00:48:53 in charge of the work streams as you describe them for example Staffing the rest centers or running housing I can recall on the white boards there were various names and various roles up there but right now
00:49:04 and various roles up there but right now as we speak I can't remember now what those what those names were so does it work this way that th those with particular responsibilities for example rest
00:49:13 rest centers establishing the Staffing opening um f frc's or other kinds of
00:49:22 kinds of Center
00:49:23 Center were um put into to Pockets with particular people in charge of them but were not answerable to the
00:49:35 were not answerable to the back they wouldn't have been answerable to the backck in that sense um they would have been answerable to to the Gold group uh more particularly um but again I'm I'm I'm having this struggle
00:49:47 again I'm I'm I'm having this struggle as I've described about you know my my ability in my role that particular night um you know I you can tell I'm really struggling here and I again I do
00:49:58 struggling here and I again I do apologize to all of you here about that um but you know as you've seen from my other reports and my Athena interview and what have you you know I was you know still very tired and I was not
00:50:11 know still very tired and I was not particularly firing on and I was relying on my back to to actually just deal with the coms that were coming in which I think they did very capably but I was not there and I don't recall that I was given any task when I arrived to
00:50:22 given any task when I arrived to actually do these major pieces of work I suspect they had done what they were going to do that day and would pick it up the following morning and under the circumstances that doesn't seem to be entirely unreasonable to me now you say
00:50:36 entirely unreasonable to me now you say and and I've shown this to you
00:50:40 uh that there were staffing issues uh at the various centers what were those
00:50:51 issues I don't know the detail of that because I wasn't involved in it and I don't know what the detail of the were I could imagine the staffing issues in terms of the numbers of Staff being there um but in terms of exactly what
00:51:03 there um but in terms of exactly what they were doing and what their staffing issues were I don't know right what what happened what was done either by you or anybody else in order to address the staffing issues at the Westway right I
00:51:14 staffing issues at the Westway right I didn't do anything to address those over that night for the reasons I've already said and others that were involved in that will have to give that information to
00:51:23 to you I don't want to be obstructive but you know I I I don't know what I don't know and I don't want to start trying to go down or guessing life but if your role as Council silver overnight was to coordinate why wasn't your role
00:51:35 coordinate why wasn't your role overnight as Council Silva to make sure that whoever was supposed to be curing or dealing with the staffing issues at the West way doing their job because I don't think my job that night was particularly that detailed my job was to
00:51:46 particularly that detailed my job was to be there as somebody who could say yes or no should a problem arise and I don't think I was given a brief any wider than that um let's then look at the Beck operations man rbk30 is
00:52:08 33596 and this is this forms Annex 3 uh and it's dated the 29th of December 2015 and if we go please to page 15
00:52:19 2015 and if we go please to page 15 paragraph uh 2.3 Ro description bur emergency
00:52:24 emergency controller uh if if you if you look at tactical silver commander and the third item down third bullet point down it says develop a tactical plan for how resources are to be obtained and used in
00:52:37 resources are to be obtained and used in order to achieve the Strategic intentions of gold default gold strategy is in 5.10 on page 43 of the contingency management plan part one generic emergency plan uh and then the next
00:52:49 emergency plan uh and then the next Bullet review and amend the Tactical plan if necessary as the incident progresses so was it not not your role as Council silver to develop the Tactical plan and review and amend it if
00:53:02 Tactical plan and review and amend it if necessary as the incident progressed as with all of these plans of any nature they are there to give the best guidance in the cold light of day that you can to
00:53:13 in the cold light of day that you can to meet any requirements all of them get adapted depending on the circumstances you find yourself at the time uh most plans will not be followed line by line but will be adapted as you go that night
00:53:27 but will be adapted as you go that night there had been a phenomenal amount of work I believe done by all sorts of colleagues during the day in lining various things up and most those people have gone home late at night to come back early in the morning to continue
00:53:38 back early in the morning to continue that work um there was not my role I thought that night in the absence of all of these people who are now at home to be trying to initiate and put in place and to speak to all sorts of people who
00:53:49 and to speak to all sorts of people who were not there to deal with it it was a watching brief at that point overnight and these matters would have been resumed in the morning that is my my best belief but why was it a watching brief as you describe it given what we
00:54:00 brief as you describe it given what we see here in these two bullet points which requires positive engagement does it not yeah that's an ideal plan these are what you draw up this is what you test with colleagues in
00:54:11 this is what you test with colleagues in in in in in in in the cold light of day and you put out as much information as you can there's no plan that you actually follow line by line circumstances will dictate where you are
00:54:22 circumstances will dictate where you are and what you are under the thing and this particular instance here would had loads of people while I was at home trying to sleep loads of people out there organizing all sorts of things they were going to pick them up the following day there was not a great body
00:54:35 following day there was not a great body of people at all overnight to be doing all of this organization you know the staff that we had would have been at the rest centers there were not staff back at the Town Hall working on all these things overnight so there wasn't a role
00:54:46 things overnight so there wasn't a role for me to be trying to do that work overnight it was now keep an eye on the backck what if any messages of call for help or something were coming in to if the Beck were answering that fine there
00:54:57 the Beck were answering that fine there was the odd decision for me to make as the senior person but it was very much that sort of sit there watching brief it wasn't about going in there and working on this part of the plan that was going to be worked on the following
00:55:12 day why sorry rather simple question but why was nighttime Paul's time with the um plan being worked on the following day and not overnight this was a
00:55:24 day and not overnight this was a continuing disaster yeah but but the local Authority is not a 24/7 staffed organization like the emergency services are you have your people out work an extended day they'll come back the following day to work another extended
00:55:36 following day to work another extended day we didn't have you know it's it's that's what the organization is forgive me I don't I'm sorry I'm I'm apologize for for you know I'm I'm doing
00:55:47 apologize for for you know I'm I'm doing my best but I'm sorry no we had I think maybe I speak for myself early but I'd rather understood that the contingency framework this whole edifice of rules regulations guidance and protocols um
00:55:59 regulations guidance and protocols um was a was supposed to be 24/7 response including 24/7 by the council is that wrong no it's not wrong but you know any part of the emergency response is
00:56:11 part of the emergency response is there's a practicality you know during a day you can do all sorts of stuff overnight you you know you you you you consolidate where you are and and the following day you then launch off again
00:56:22 following day you then launch off again if that's necessary and again it's very very very rare for a local Authority Control Center and all of these other services to be going on for that time to that scale uh and again we come back to
00:56:35 that scale uh and again we come back to pre grenal Tower the planning assumptions and the nature of the plans and the intention of those plans um were of a lesser scale than than than what actually came in for this incident for
00:56:47 actually came in for this incident for for all the reasons we've talked about um how this incident come through and and yes it does show a need to revisit then some of these plans and and I'm sure that may have happened but at that
00:56:58 sure that may have happened but at that particular time you know the organization had worked flat out that day there was a breathing space overnight to come and work flat out the following day my role was not to be
00:57:09 following day my role was not to be trying to call out again all the people that had gone home to go to bed to start initiating more
00:57:18 work and I don't think anything I've said there compromises the overall Spirit of
00:57:25 Spirit of this but it does doesn't it because if you're going to take nighttime off developing a tactical plan and reviewing and amending the Tactical plan if necessary and it does say if necessary
00:57:36 necessary and it does say if necessary as the incident progresses then you're not complying with your own operations manual because night time's downtime it wasn't total downtime you've got a control center there were people at rest centers there were liaison
00:57:48 at rest centers there were liaison meetings going on uh with the other services as they required them but you know the organization yes worked flat out one day worked flat out the next it wasn't working flat out overnight and I
00:58:01 wasn't working flat out overnight and I don't think it had at all the capability to do so and I don't think that is unreasonable now in connection with the question of Staffing Rebecca Blackburn says that she asked you to arrange an overnight rotor
00:58:14 asked you to arrange an overnight rotor for the rest center managers for the next day do you remember that um I think I do right and she says in her statement that you didn't complete the RoR for rest center managers is that right I I
00:58:26 rest center managers is that right I I think it's likely that I didn't get that completed why is that I think that would have been possibly because the Beck did its best over that night but
00:58:38 over that night but again no do you know what I don't know um is the safer answer I could I can I can start trying to extemporize why that might be but but I actually I don't know I'm sorry let's go to rbk40 is 4244
00:58:58 this is an email uh and I say this um there is an email here from Stuart Priestley just below the first one to the
00:59:11 first one to the backck uh at uh on the 15th of June uh at 5:08 you see that it's the second email down mhm uh and uh it says David ignore my
00:59:24 mhm uh and uh it says David ignore my last message I will be in 7:30ish we need a strategy for today comms Distributing Aid housing plans as well as longer term recover strategy I'm
00:59:37 well as longer term recover strategy I'm sure you have given this thought overnight see you soon Stuart that's from Stuart Priestly MH was such a strategy prepared and discussed no it wasn't and I didn't have the capability
00:59:50 wasn't and I didn't have the capability that night to do so well um you you said that overnight you weren't initiating work you were simply watching brief why did you not have the the um capability that night to
01:00:03 have the the um capability that night to develop what he said you had given thought to or should have because I was exhausted and I was drained and I did not have the mental accurity to actually get out there and do some of these
01:00:14 get out there and do some of these things to that degree and I also thought that actually that was a little bit of cheeky frankly to expect all of that to be done for 7:30 in the morning that really was something for a daytime
01:00:26 really was something for a daytime silver to be getting to grips with in the cold light of day when all the information was provided do you recall the 7:30 at 7:30 the next morning the 15th of June you met Stuart Priestly and uh
01:00:39 of June you met Stuart Priestly and uh completed a Handover uh even all I can't remember the time so I'll accept whatever the the time of Stuart's law would have said um it would have been again a conversation in a side room just
01:00:51 again a conversation in a side room just saying what may or may not have happened overnight and um by by this time Stuart priestley's recollection according to his statement paragraph 43 on page 9 is that the Beck log still contained many
01:01:03 that the Beck log still contained many actions which were live and have not not yet been closed out would you accept that I would accept that yes do you know why that is the case why had work not been undertaken to close out actions on the Beck
01:01:14 the Beck log um I think from what I saw the following night and I dare say he'll come to that in time but just to say that when we had a chance the following nights to examine the log in detail an awful lot of the items that hadn't been
01:01:27 awful lot of the items that hadn't been marked as closed actually when we assessed had been dealt with and closed uh and you will see from my statement following the following nights that we actually did that um but you know some
01:01:39 actually did that um but you know some actions will take hours before there's resolution to them you know not everything is we log this somebody make a phone call and it's dealt with you know stuff gets logged some of that will be open for some
01:01:52 be open for some time it sounds as sounds from the evidence you've been giving in the last few minutes and also from your project Athena interview where you say you were pretty Zonk I was that that in fact you
01:02:04 pretty Zonk I was that that in fact you you you weren't in a fit condition properly to carry out your role no I don't think I was right did you tell anybody
01:02:12 that not during the night um we would have had a conversation and I'd have said I was still tired when I got there but I think it was there was nobody else for that night um I think I would I'm pretty sure
01:02:25 night um I think I would I'm pretty sure I would have said so before I went home that day and I was told not to come back until 8:00 that evening uh which would give me more of a chance to get to some sleep there but no that particular night
01:02:36 sleep there but no that particular night I didn't get on the phone and say to anybody I'm too tired for this it was just a question of the becks managing here the staff are getting on with what they're dealing with they're speaking to me when they need to um should I have
01:02:47 me when they need to um should I have been there at all ideally absolutely not to be quite honest but I think under the time we were at um you know there there was nobody else um I and now in retrospect I would say
01:02:59 um I and now in retrospect I would say that it would have been a good idea to have got an emergency planner from another Authority in to do that role overnight there's the distaff side of that of course that they wouldn't know the borrow but they might be better
01:03:11 the borrow but they might be better understanding of some of those items and what have you and perhaps they might have been better able to focus on some of the the issues that you thought of and I think that's another example certainly going forward for Mutual Aid
01:03:23 certainly going forward for Mutual Aid to consider that um you know every emergency planning team in London is Tiny But collectively there is more of a resource and um with
01:03:34 of a resource and um with hindsight I would have been better if I'd refused to come in but you don't refuse in an emergency like that to do that if if you look at in cold common sense I really should have said I'm
01:03:45 sense I really should have said I'm sorry I can't come in I'm too tired let me come in the following day but I didn't I came in as I was asked and yes I was too tired really now can I then ask you about the attendance of Mark
01:03:57 ask you about the attendance of Mark Sawyer do you remember that he attended at the at the Town Hall on the morning of the 15th of June and met you and Nicholas Holgate um I know that Mark came in certainly and I think he was coming in to attend Nicholas's Hol Gates
01:04:11 coming in to attend Nicholas's Hol Gates um go group meeting um on behalf of John baradel I think to sort of give a watching brief yes and he was the chief executive liaison officer resilience yes for the lap yes yes as a member of the
01:04:22 for the lap yes yes as a member of the lap um do you remember providing him with a briefing I don't remember I certainly imagined that if we met that I would have talked to him about what I what I was aware of
01:04:33 to him about what I what I was aware of but I don't recall do you did did you relay to him what the strategy and approach of rbkc was up until that point I don't recall the meeting so I don't recall that and therefore you wouldn't recall whether he gave any advice I do
01:04:44 recall whether he gave any advice I do not recall no do you remember whether there was any discussion about Mutual Aid or the activation of London Gold resolution I'm S I do not recall the meeting I'm accepting that we almost certainly did but I'm I'm sorry I do not
01:04:55 certainly did but I'm I'm sorry I do not recall that meeting let's go to go 41301 this is an email uh from Mark Sawyer to
01:05:05 Sawyer to himself so these are his own private Recollections dated the 1st of July initial observations they're really a retrospective diary
01:05:19 entry uh and he's noting his observations from his attendance on the 15th of June 2017 and at the second paragraph he says uh on arrival donations piled
01:05:32 says uh on arrival donations piled outside Town Hall milkin son um immediate concern that the organization had not been galvanized into responding did did you or do you consider that that was a Justified
01:05:51 concern yes and no the no no bit is that huge numbers of colleagues were absolutely doing their best on that point the the yes bit is
01:06:03 best on that point the the yes bit is the organization hadn't got to grips with the severity and actually calling in the sorts of mutual Aid that they should have done earlier and underneath that he says briefing by DK that that would be you EP manager confirmed he was
01:06:16 would be you EP manager confirmed he was traumatized second night not in a position to offer strategic Direction with influence that that you may not recall telling him that but would we be right in thinking that is entirely consistent with what you've been telling
01:06:28 consistent with what you've been telling us so far this afternoon absolutely um and then uh in the sixth paragraph down he notes Beck failing with no situational awareness no
01:06:40 failing with no situational awareness no sitre produced is it correct that there was no sitre situation report produced uh there wasn't that day that's the thing that we did the following the following night right his judgment was
01:06:52 following night right his judgment was that the Beck was failing do you agree
01:06:58 um yes in terms of what had it been better structured and the situation reporting and other matters in terms of giving that information yes it was doing
01:07:09 giving that information yes it was doing lots of Sterling work in terms of receiving information getting out what they could get but if we look at what we did the following night and got some structure back at that point the Beck wasn't nearly as efficient as perhaps it
01:07:20 wasn't nearly as efficient as perhaps it could have been and you'll see from future evidence uh how over Thursday night
01:07:26 night uh some of us managed to get that sorted out and give recommendations for the following day and to actually recover that situation do you agree that that a situation report is a critical tool in
01:07:37 situation report is a critical tool in disseminating internally information within
01:07:40 within rbkc uh and to the Gold group and also externally to the scg or the London local Authority um coordination Center not critical to the extent that the
01:07:52 not critical to the extent that the failure of it was catastrophic because all of the information would have gone into a situation report format was being given to the Gold group was being given to the teleconferences for the Strategic coordination group and the Tactical
01:08:03 coordination group and the Tactical coordination group and that sort of information was out there um that doesn't alter the fact that good practices actually if you can collate this neatly into one form and then update it so people can see where the
01:08:14 update it so people can see where the updates are that's a good thing and that's what we did do the following day well why didn't you take the time overnight to produce a situation report I fall back on how described to you
01:08:26 I fall back on how described to you where I was and what um Mr Sawyer obviously saw as well right uh and then at the very foot of your screen foot of the email he says advise teny redp
01:08:38 advise teny redp puff uh that he needed to take DK off nights and move to days that wasn't done was it no do you know why not I don't know why not um
01:08:50 know why not I don't know why not um certainly when I finished on the Thursday morning I was tasked to come back back at 8:00 on Thursday night to continue to be the overnight Council silver which I did when I left on Friday
01:09:02 silver which I did when I left on Friday morning I was tasked to come back on Friday evening that didn't happen because the Beck by then had relocated and uh before I was due to come on I was then told to come back on the daytime
01:09:13 then told to come back on the daytime for the Saturday and thereafter so I I I'm not aware of this reference to Tony redpath uh and certainly I wasn't taken off I was actually tasked to come back
01:09:25 off I was actually tasked to come back on that Thursday night in hindsight do you consider that it was a mistake that you worked at night in those first three days and not during the day given uh with hindsight it would have been far better had I not worked at all on that
01:09:38 better had I not worked at all on that Wednesday night and that I had come back properly refreshed in the morning of Thursday and then I think I would have been in a much better position as an emergency planning manager to give views
01:09:50 emergency planning manager to give views and
01:09:51 and consideration um and you know that absolutely I think should have happened it didn't and I can see why Mark Sawyer
01:10:02 didn't and I can see why Mark Sawyer probably saw that and saw the evidence of the state I was in and obviously probably appreciated better the role that could be better played now uh we then come to the night
01:10:16 played now uh we then come to the night of the 15th 16th of June that's the Thursday to Friday yes um you went home I think after your meeting with Mark Sawyer that morning the morning of of the the 16th yes and um you returned to
01:10:30 the the 16th yes and um you returned to the backck at some point in the think at 8:00 in the evening yes did you take over again from Stuart Priestley as Council Sila I can't recall who I took over from did you have a hand over uh
01:10:41 over from did you have a hand over uh not a formal written Handover whoever it would have been would have been a conversation at that point and what was the the prevailing view at rbkc about how how the Beck was operating at that
01:10:52 stage I don't recall anybody expressing you about that I mean the Beck um had been better staffed I think that day uh and was
01:11:01 and was working um by the time I arrived I think the Staffing was starting to wind down for the evening and we ended up with the two people I've named in my statement
01:11:12 two people I've named in my statement and myself being the overnight staff that was entirely sufficient for that night by Thursday evening there was there was almost nothing coming into the back by way of
01:11:23 nothing coming into the back by way of phone calls or emails or what have you that was typical you would expect that that meant the three of us were not only able to monitor the occasional phone call or email but we were able to then do a night's work of actually working
01:11:34 do a night's work of actually working out where was the Beck Going through every log item going through the emails and producing a written report which I'm sure you've got an evidence that we used as a formal written Handover the following morning and what were the key
01:11:45 following morning and what were the key tasks for you to address that evening um I wasn't given any key tasks as such um but it it was clearly logical between me and particularly Louise elto who was the
01:11:57 and particularly Louise elto who was the most marvelous resource um that right there's nothing happening in terms of the phones I've got no jobs I've been given to go and organize anything I wasn't being asked to organize rotors or anything like that we were in the
01:12:09 anything like that we were in the control center and it was right we decided together uh I think probably with some prompting by Louise who was fresh um let's now just review everything um she and I reviewed all of
01:12:21 everything um she and I reviewed all of the logs Angela reviewed all of the emails uh we went through absolutely everything we reorganized the information on the state boards and what have you Louise and I then I think Tony redpath had put a request in that we
01:12:33 redpath had put a request in that we organize a sitre a situation report and certainly Louise and I um put that together um and produced for the morning the the the RO sitre number one um I
01:12:44 the the the RO sitre number one um I think goals then later asked for that baradel by then asked for that to be produced three times a day which I think the authority did for several weeks um we produced as you have in
01:12:56 weeks um we produced as you have in evidence the um the two-page email where we actually listed the few log items that still required action and I think we listed some emails that required some
01:13:08 we listed some emails that required some action and we gave some written recommendations about some more hot training for the Beck staff in for that day I think we said you need to get a
01:13:19 day I think we said you need to get a sow entry sign on the door to stop people wandering in and out and you need to identify the Beck manager and I believe the Beck manager put one of our tabards on or something like that um I'm
01:13:31 tabards on or something like that um I'm aware that when I left that morning I could see through the backck door as I walk past it that all of these things were happening I could see I think Rebecca was giving a a training at that point I could see the sign on the door
01:13:43 point I could see the sign on the door so there was very Swift action by those that were involved on the Friday morning to put that into effect okay let's see if we can just quickly pick up one or two of the documents that you just identified in that answer the first
01:13:54 identified in that answer the first situation report I think is it rbk30 is 15017 let's just have that for the panel is that is this the the situation
01:14:06 panel is that is this the the situation report done at uh 16th of June at 7:00 a.m. yes so this is towards the end of your night shift starting at 8:00 a.m. on the 15th yes right that's the one you referred to your last answer and then um
01:14:19 referred to your last answer and then um if you uh was that that was at the request of Tony redpath was it yes and it was done by Louise ELO what was her role very briefly so Lise ELO was working for me as one of the Beck's
01:14:30 working for me as one of the Beck's staff but Louise elto is also a very very experienced emergency planner in the field and by that time was a consultant so she came and volunteered with us and I took full use of her
01:14:42 with us and I took full use of her skills and abilities to to to to work through that night so we together devised this form we took it as from a template I think I'd got somewhere else we actually adapted it and and extended
01:14:54 we actually adapted it and and extended it
01:14:55 it uh Louise um was very influential in in working that out we then collected that information and put it in and I think that format I think survived pretty much all the way through for going on right
01:15:08 all the way through for going on right rbk30 is
01:15:12 28947 which is uh an email I think at 7:39 on the 16th of June 2017 from you yes uh to Stuart well a copy to Stuart Priestly situation report produced as
01:15:24 Priestly situation report produced as Paton red path request was this the document we looked at yes right and in this email there are other things as you can see a long list of things requests from Stella Bailey questions are social
01:15:35 from Stella Bailey questions are social workers needed at the Westway tomorrow and we can go down the list and at the very foot of the page if we scroll to the foot of the page please just above Military Support but under email from Sue Harris 2049 Westway Sports Center
01:15:48 Sue Harris 2049 Westway Sports Center update um volunteers needing to get back to day jobs want to hand over to local Authority I assume this is BRC V action for rbsp and then there are three actions
01:15:59 rbsp and then there are three actions there yes linking with the development developing Community assistant senent work uh senior La officers to deal with Communications to troubleshoot and dish out cash and then Nicholas Holgate wants
01:16:11 out cash and then Nicholas Holgate wants lbhf and WCC to supply two senior managers for each shift over the weekend for rest centers uh for rest centers uh uh and then
01:16:25 uh uh and then uh over the page of page two Beck emails the second item on that page Lots seem to be unread you see that mhm was that not a matter of concern to you that
01:16:36 that not a matter of concern to you that you discovered that emails being sent into the back were not being read yes that's why we raised this as an item for them to pick up and deal with yes hence the question is does the Beck have a dedicated email box inbox Monitor and
01:16:47 dedicated email box inbox Monitor and how are the emails allocated for Action was that not in was that not sorted was that was there not a system for that so the backck eight computers in the back one email box so every computer would
01:16:59 one email box so every computer would see the one back at rbkc email box and what it so our review that night of emails looking for emails that had matters that clearly we couldn't find a
01:17:11 matters that clearly we couldn't find a corresponding log action to say they' been dealt with and some of those are some of the issues you you've seen elsewhere in that page um so what we asked the question there was given that I wasn't in the back during the daytime
01:17:23 I wasn't in the back during the daytime you know is there somebody one person now who will take responsibility for monitoring all emails and then ensuring that those emails have been picked up by somebody so we wanted to say look if
01:17:34 somebody so we wanted to say look if You' still got a free-for all that people pick up what they're seeing and somebody looks at this and somebody look at that excuse me um that's not good enough you know so we POS the question is there a a Beck monitor uh with the
01:17:46 is there a a Beck monitor uh with the inference being if not you really ought to get one and to ask that question so this was to the day staff look look at this this is what we think is a problem but you're the people here look at this
01:17:58 but you're the people here look at this and deal with it right Mr chairman is that a convenient moment for the afternoon yes I think it is I think we ought have a short break now Mr Kerry we'll stop and resume please at 25 to 4: thank you as before please then discuss
01:18:10 thank you as before please then discuss your evidence with that's of the R thank
01:18:18 you a Sit Right
01:18:22 Right that thank you very much Mr minute 25 thank you Mr
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01:36:28 would you ask Mr carry to come back in
01:36:33 [Music] please thank you all right Mr K carry get yourself settled ready to carry on yes thank you very much yes Mr
01:36:45 carry on yes thank you very much yes Mr thank you Mr chairman um Mr K let's go back into uh the email we were on uh earlier which is at RB K 30
01:36:56 28947 and go back to page one if we can please um I picked this up with you just before the break we didn't study it in any detail and this is the passage
01:37:07 any detail and this is the passage underneath the heading email from Sue Harris 2049 Westway Sports Center update right uh now Sue Harris was at the time correct me if I'm wrong about this a
01:37:19 correct me if I'm wrong about this a London burough of Hammersmith and Fulham employee with by bur role as executive director of environment Leisure and resident services am I right I'm not sure that she was
01:37:30 right I'm not sure that she was executive director at that point she was certainly a director in that department forgive me um I don't know why I'm not sure whether she's the executive director or not all right but anyway
01:37:41 director or not all right but anyway certainly a very very senior manager in that department right looking uh right let let's go to rbk 30 sorry rbk 40 80 please
01:37:57 sorry I beg your pardon clearly yes yes and this is her email to Nicholas Holgate Tony redpath and Stuart
01:38:08 Holgate Tony redpath and Stuart Priestley
01:38:10 Priestley uh copied to the back on the 15th of June at 2049 so you would have seen this when it came in is that right um yes yes and she says this as previously reported
01:38:23 and she says this as previously reported other agencies have been questioning the role of the LA in coordinating activity at the center Westway trust are happy to house operations but don't want to be the logistical leaders likewise the police volunteers have been magnificent
01:38:34 police volunteers have been magnificent in organizing themselves but now want to hand over to the LA and get back to their day jobs we want to reduce the number of community volunteers and utilize councel ones Debbie thanks you for your very positive offer of some
01:38:46 for your very positive offer of some assistance a person from your La pool tomorrow morning I can get some additional elrs staff if required that's environment Leisure and resident services um we have agreed to conduct meetings of agencies at 9:00 p.m. 9 9:30
01:38:59 meetings of agencies at 9:00 p.m. 9 9:30 a.m. and 300 p.m. here until the center is scale down we're trying to tighten up on the on the registration process for people staying overnight there has been a request for more social workers from Tomorrow Stella is that possible the LA
01:39:10 Tomorrow Stella is that possible the LA rest center managers and Lelo are doing a great job but there does still seem to be the need for a senior La officer to deal with Communications and be available to troubleshoot in a live situation and dish out cash uh now
01:39:23 situation and dish out cash uh now that's where the quotation comes from that we that find its way into the email we were looking at just before the break um is it the position looking at her email that um she was referring to the
01:39:37 email that um she was referring to the to community volunteers who were assisting at the Westway and not the British Red Cross I not sure about that was the message coming back from the West way
01:39:48 message coming back from the West way VIA Sue Harris and others that there was a need for more Council staff visible Council leadership ship and better Council communication that is how I would interpret this yes so that's something that you knew when you saw
01:39:59 something that you knew when you saw this email the following morning yes yes yes and that was therefore reflected in the three actions that we see at the foot of the first email we looked at let's go back to that rbk30 is
01:40:10 let's go back to that rbk30 is 28947 yes yes so that email was to Nicholas Holgate and others at that senior level copied to the backck but having seen that copy in the backck we wanted to highlight that to ensure the
01:40:22 wanted to highlight that to ensure the backck were aware that was either actioned or to pursue that I see so on the basis of this document being the Handover document at 7:30 in the morning when you were coming off duty and
01:40:33 when you were coming off duty and handing back over to Stuart Priestley can we take it that you passed that over to the day shift with the suggestion that this was referred on to sue Redmond who was going to be taking over
01:40:45 Redmond who was going to be taking over the humanity or was had by then taken over the humanitarian response so we handed this document over with that reference to that email for the day shift for Stuart and for Rebecca and others to pick that up and then to
01:40:57 and others to pick that up and then to take those actions right so sorry when I say take those actions not to take the actions requested in the email but to ensure that the email didn't get lost on to understand that those actions were
01:41:08 to understand that those actions were being dealt with right or to bring that to the attention of somebody if necessary so it was your intention that this question and the problem identified by Sue Harris in her email identified here and the email itself would be
01:41:19 here and the email itself would be picked up by Stuart Priestley and run with during during the day 16th of June my intention was that it clearly was addressed to Nicholas Holgate and the Gold group and therefore there that go
01:41:32 Gold group and therefore there that go group needed to deal with it so I wanted Stuart to be aware that he could make sure whether through Tony or somebody else are they dealing with it that's the sort of narrative there if you like somebody to say the Beck's aware this
01:41:44 somebody to say the Beck's aware this request is out there hey are you doing it has it been done there's one other feature of Westway I'd like to ask you about and that's the registration of those who are affected by the fire MH um now you
01:41:56 affected by the fire MH um now you mentioned in your first witness statement um paragraph 98 that uh on the Wednesday night the 14th of June the focus shifted to the West way and you
01:42:07 focus shifted to the West way and you say that efforts were made to funnel everyone there so they could be registered yes yes that's what you say do you know how the details of those who attended the other rest centers earlier in the incident such as the Harrow club
01:42:20 in the incident such as the Harrow club and the rugby portello trust that we've seen were recorded my understanding is that in those centers where there were not British Red Cross staff there was no council stroke BRC recording of that one
01:42:34 council stroke BRC recording of that one of the purposes of attempting to get everybody to the one Center was that there would be then a possibility of a proper registration of everyone um and I believe most centers
01:42:46 everyone um and I believe most centers complied with that there was one of the centers and some people in it wish to remain open and they were to my best of my knowledge they were given the message well look you know if you do you do but you must be aware that um anybody that's
01:42:58 you must be aware that um anybody that's not at the Westway may not get all of the information that they need because they won't have been registered was was that
01:43:05 that information uh namely the The Duality or triality of the registration system shared within the bag I'm sorry I don't understand well was the fact that there were different registrations of
01:43:16 were different registrations of different people at different times known to everybody at the back um oh I doubt that I mean my awareness um is that um British Red Cross part of
01:43:27 um is that um British Red Cross part of the facility they gave when when they were at any rest center would be to register for the council everybody that was in there and to deal with that um I do not know if anybody at any of the
01:43:39 do not know if anybody at any of the other centers was making lists of people there I just don't know that was the central record kept of the details of those registered at different R arrest centers um the Beck didn't have anything
01:43:50 centers um the Beck didn't have anything for that my assumption is that when the BR Red Cross had got on board and were doing that that information would have been shared with whoever in the rbkc was then taking managerial responsibility for that sir why didn't the Beck have it
01:44:02 for that sir why didn't the Beck have it when it when it was available I don't know
01:44:06 know [Music]
01:44:07 [Music] um sorry you should it have done
01:44:14 um I mean the Beck wouldn't have done anything with it as such um the information was more I think appropriate for the people that were actually man starting to manage the we their services and would need that information there's
01:44:25 and would need that information there's no reason why the Beck shouldn't have had it let me if I say that but sorry youve just thrown me there it's not something I'd thought about before in in this instance I think it was the BRC the British Red Cross staff responsible for
01:44:37 British Red Cross staff responsible for registering those affected at the West way wasn't it yes I believe so yes and and that was part of theou yeah and the the process did you know that the process was that they the volunteers would go around the center Westway
01:44:48 would go around the center Westway Center and record the details of anyone who approached the registration desk and anyone who they came ac across who hadn't been properly registered that that's the system the system yes yes
01:44:59 that's the system the system yes yes were you aware that BRC volunteers would record the details of those they were registering using triple carbon paper and then provide copies of those to the council I was aware of that yes yes was
01:45:10 council I was aware of that yes yes was that would that was that what you would have expected at that particular time yes
01:45:15 yes right now Colin Brown who has told us what I've just put to you and you you've accepted um was of the British Red Cross um and he has given us a statement and
01:45:28 um and he has given us a statement and he says this I'll show it to you BRC 75 please first page is the first page of his statement which is there 11th of June 2019 and if we go to page 26
01:45:41 June 2019 and if we go to page 26 paragraph 101 he says that it was reported to him he says this however I got the sense that rbkc was not discharging this
01:45:53 that rbkc was not discharging this responsibility I came to this view because a BRC volunteer found a box containing a number of the second and third copies of the registration forms that had been filled in by the BRC and provided to the rbkc left lying around
01:46:06 provided to the rbkc left lying around the Westway it appeared that no efforts had been made by the rbkc to colate the data in any sensible manner I asked the bronze on site duty officer to report the presence of this box to the rbkc to
01:46:19 the presence of this box to the rbkc to express concern and dissatisfaction as to this state of affairs and to ask asked for clarification as to how the data was being appropriately collated however I unaware of how the council responded or whether it it it did in
01:46:32 responded or whether it it it did in fact do so at all were you aware of that problem being reported to the bank no I was not aware of that problem this is the first time I've been aware of that problem and I'm horrified to read this
01:46:44 problem and I'm horrified to read this right so I take it from that that it ought to have been raised with the back uh it absolutely should have been raised with somebody in the back of nobody else I'm I'm I'm I'm sorry this is the first time I've known of this I am horrified
01:46:55 time I've known of this I am horrified to see it can you account for it no I can't I should there have been someone at the Westway from rbkc collecting the box and bringing it back to the back or somewhere within the council my belief
01:47:06 somewhere within the council my belief has always been that from when the Westway got up and running that the Cil had managers there for that uh so my expectation would have been that those managers would have been liasing with
01:47:18 managers would have been liasing with British Red Cross my expectation is that those managers and British Red Cross would have had the system to Safeguard information and to sure it was got to where it was going now I'm saying all of this as expectations because again I was
01:47:30 this as expectations because again I was not there of course and that was not my job and I don't want to sound as though I'm shifting blame but the fact of the matter is other people responsible for this that's how I would have expected it to have been dealt with were you aware that the Red Cross had not been asked to
01:47:42 that the Red Cross had not been asked to enter the details that they took down into any electronic data collection system or any other system whereby they could collect the data uh no I wasn't aware of that but my understanding of
01:47:54 aware of that but my understanding of the B British red cross registration system at that time was the of these triplicate forms so that um you know different people could receive the same information um my expectation again
01:48:05 information um my expectation again would be that the council receive those and if somebody thought that there would be value to put those into a spreadsheet or whatever then then the relevance Department would do that um it is by the way sensible at arrest
01:48:18 um it is by the way sensible at arrest Center for people taking details of evacuees to actually do it in process of handwriting because it enables a onetoone personal relationship I was witness at an exercise some years
01:48:30 witness at an exercise some years previously the Westminster city council did where they tried the use of laptops to directly enter data from people and the feedback from all of the volunteers or evacuees were it was incredibly
01:48:41 or evacuees were it was incredibly impersonal this laptop became a barrier between them and and they did not feel they were being cared for so there's a lot of good value in the handwriting of information that does of course then
01:48:52 information that does of course then need to go want to be processed and exercise unified response when I visited the um one of the welfare centers the emergency uh the Survivor Reception Center and played the role of a casualty
01:49:05 Center and played the role of a casualty myself um certainly I was able to observe that the pay for forms were then passed to a data center where there were people with computers to enter that there now this wasn't happening here I'm telling you what the good practice is um
01:49:17 telling you what the good practice is um I can't answer to you what was happening in another part of the area that I was not dealing with can you help me with this I mean given the importance of collating and safeguarding information
01:49:29 collating and safeguarding information about
01:49:31 about survivors and and others who may have been uh affected even though they weren't actually living in the tower why is the Beck not the obvious uh point at which to collect all
01:49:44 obvious uh point at which to collect all the information and to put it into a simple database so that it there is a a central repository of that important information uh my assumption on that
01:49:56 information uh my assumption on that would have been that you have a team in this instance in adult social care that are leading on the response of of that that service their people and their computers and their systems and their
01:50:08 computers and their systems and their offices would be the better place for them to use the systems they're aware of and to collect that information safely there um the Beck wouldn't have had the capacity of people and computers to take
01:50:19 capacity of people and computers to take that extra work on at that particular time as the Beck was saying set up but you know there was the rest of the council and there were the teams that could I believe would have been able to have taken on that role presumably the
01:50:30 have taken on that role presumably the Beck ought if if that had been done the Beck ought to have known by whom it was being done I think that's a a reasonable question statement to say yes but it doesn't sound as though doesn't seem it
01:50:41 doesn't sound as though doesn't seem it doesn't seem as though it happens no well it doesn't sound as though you know whether it was being done and if so by whom uh no certainly in seeing the statement here clearly it wasn't being done uh um and I I'm I'm just horrified
01:50:55 done uh um and I I'm I'm just horrified to see
01:50:56 to see that thank you and do you accept that the lack of an adequate Central registration system had a negative effect on the ability of responders to identify those who needed
01:51:07 responders to identify those who needed help what kind of help they needed and generally to keep track of progress I think it must have done now let's go to Friday the 16th onwards I think you completed your shift on the Friday morning were you aware of
01:51:20 on the Friday morning were you aware of the decision to activate the gold resolution on the afternoon of the 16th of June Friday the 16th of June no I was aware that John baradel uh and with Mark
01:51:31 aware that John baradel uh and with Mark Sawyer to to to support him was coming to the morning Gold group meeting at Kensington and in fact I had been asked by Mark Sawyer on John badell's behalf
01:51:42 by Mark Sawyer on John badell's behalf to write the agenda for that meeting because there was concern that the agenda that was being used wasn't adequately um informing that meeting to to look at all the issues i d before I
01:51:53 to look at all the issues i d before I left I did draft that agenda I actually went to the London strategic plan for for for a specimen agenda there uh and put that and that was used with one
01:52:04 put that and that was used with one minor
01:52:05 minor Amendment um so I was aware that um John baradel was coming down um at that point I had no information that the gold resolution was going to be enacted at
01:52:16 resolution was going to be enacted at that time I think I I think it probably was in the wind and uh that that was likely to happen and I and I think my perception would have been that if John's now coming down in person there's
01:52:29 John's now coming down in person there's a good intent behinds that but um I had nothing official about that do you know why it took until the afternoon of the 16th of June to activate the London Gold resolution no that that is a matter for
01:52:42 resolution no that that is a matter for Mr Hol was the L in your professional Experience day was the lapse of time with the scale of the incident being clear to you at least by the middle of the morning of the 14th of
01:52:54 the morning of the 14th of June was the was the lapse of time until the uh invocation of the gold resolution justified by anything in the regulations or the guidance or any of the protocols
01:53:06 or the guidance or any of the protocols or your own contingency management plan forgive me it's been a long day I got slightly lost in the question I do apologize but if you'd kindly repeat the question I'd be great was the delay in
01:53:17 question I'd be great was the delay in invoking London Gold until the afternoon of the 16th of June justified by anything in the regulations in the guidance uh any of the protocols
01:53:28 guidance uh any of the protocols governing London or your own contingency management plan certainly by Friday morning it was quite clear that there was all sorts of mutual Aid was coming in and was on the
01:53:39 mutual Aid was coming in and was on the path and what have you so sitting there myself on Friday morning you know I was aware that the authority was starting to receive that in terms of whether there was anything prescribed I I don't think
01:53:51 was anything prescribed I I don't think there is anything prescribed at that time that says at a particular point of this that or the other Thou shalt invoke I think it was still very much a question for the chief executive The Authority involved to formally seek that
01:54:06 Authority involved to formally seek that um and and indeed going Beyond of course the gold resolution was subsequently amended by agreement of London's Chief Executives to actually put in an ability for London local Authority goals to
01:54:17 for London local Authority goals to actually intercede if it became necessary if the authority didn't so at that point I think there was nothing in St in written down that said there was an automatic trigger point that one
01:54:28 an automatic trigger point that one should have gone so I think it was the I believe it was for the chief executive to make the determination to call um and our chief executive had
01:54:42 call um and our chief executive had advice from me had had advice from other Chief Executives and was in constant touch with John baradel other than that I can't answer further I think now I want to ask you just a few final
01:54:53 want to ask you just a few final questions about the postfire review and some of the implementations of the changes by the council um first in relation to your assessment of the performance of the council you've covered this in your statement uh at
01:55:06 covered this in your statement uh at page 23 if we can just look at that on page 23 you say paragraph 105 underneath the heading the grandell emergency
01:55:18 emergency response you say in terms of initial response we needed to get liaison officers on the scene to act as lines of communication we needed to provide shelter and first support and also
01:55:29 shelter and first support and also needed to line up senior managers in order to develop later plans I think the council achieved this effectively within that first few hours is that right do you still think
01:55:40 hours is that right do you still think that the council achieved it effectively in the first few hours I just take a moment to read the sentence again please
01:55:56 yes I think even I would take question with the word effectively now reviewing that again um we did get liaz and officers out promptly um certainly during the course
01:56:08 promptly um certainly during the course of the day the shelter situation started to rationalize it was very much the community response to begin with but I think I explained yesterday Community response anywhere in the country very
01:56:19 response anywhere in the country very often is the first response but we recognize I recogn Iz there was the lack of the essential bit of council management to go into those community centers at that time so although we were
01:56:31 centers at that time so although we were lining up senior managers and things like that no I don't think the council achieved this effectively we had some achievements it wasn't all bad but I'm sorry I will happily acknowledge
01:56:45 sorry I will happily acknowledge that that is not the right expression that I should have used and in the next paragraph you say the greenfeld response was not neat we have emergency planning procedures in place however a response
01:56:57 procedures in place however a response to a particular emergency may not always fit neatly into those procedures decisions are made to fit the circumstances as you know them to be at the time now when you say the grvi response was not neat what do you mean
01:57:10 response was not neat what do you mean oh I think in terms of everything we've been discussing here the fact that there were delays in getting some things through the fact that we didn't have sufficient people trained up to start with the fact that there were delays and getting Mutual Aid in for some of these
01:57:22 getting Mutual Aid in for some of these areas you know all of the things you have been tasking me about over the last few days and and that we can clearly see show that although we did respond to the
01:57:33 show that although we did respond to the first call and we did use our plan effectively to get the as officers out and although we did later on have various facilities going it wasn't ABCD really swiftly dealt with and we've
01:57:46 ABCD really swiftly dealt with and we've established all of that in the last two days at least so it was not a a neat invocation doesn't alter the fact that we did have some plans and we used elements of those plans and some of those elements of plans were quite
01:57:59 those elements of plans were quite successful but I've acknowledged I think at least twice that you know we could have done better should have done better can I ask this
01:58:11 should have done better can I ask this do you think you may have underestimated the number of people that you needed to mobilize within the first few hours in order to get an effective resp response
01:58:23 order to get an effective resp response up and running yes chairman I think I did underestimate I still stand by my early remarks about not bringing in too many too soon at the early hours because you need to deploy them later I would
01:58:34 you need to deploy them later I would accept chairman that actually had I a better appreciation of just the seriousness of this then I think I would have said well actually we do need some more senior managers in the town hall
01:58:46 more senior managers in the town hall earlier and and I was thinking really of people on the ground to ensure that you had someone at every rest center for example reporting back and so on and so forth um if you needed more people
01:58:58 forth um if you needed more people presumably you could have asked for crossb assistance yes we could um certainly by the time I got to the back in the morning that dis those
01:59:09 in the morning that dis those discussions were happening and and that was all being sorted out um but you know I was in I was in touch with Nicholas hallgate and Stewart Priestly at various times during that morning and for whatever reason none of us because no no
01:59:22 whatever reason none of us because no no said to me David push all of the buttons at this point I think we were all not [Music]
01:59:35 grasping what was going to happen so I still stand by don't bring everybody out at 4:00 in the morning when the whole thing is still developing but I do think in retrospect we could
01:59:48 but I do think in retrospect we could have got perhaps a much a bigger senior man management team involved even if on the phones at that point and that might well have influenced how we might have gone further on thank you very
02:00:00 gone further on thank you very much yes thank you Mr K just one or two further questions can I ask you please to be shown rbk30
02:00:15 33587 now this is your spiral pad again and can we go please in that to page seven and on page seven uh this this looks like if you
02:00:28 seven uh this this looks like if you look at page six uh well sorry page seven left hand side um it timed at around
02:00:36 around 06:30
02:00:38 06:30 scg next call 6:30 and then on the right hand side it says
02:00:45 says tweet can you help me read it grenfell Action Group yes mhm number of of years ago yes mhm sorry
02:00:56 ago yes mhm sorry yes something to fire paper that looks like paper to fire um Grand AC prior to fire prior to fire
02:01:08 um Grand AC prior to fire prior to fire um no that's not prior if anything that's just paper paper um or PT right let's um try another document keep that up at the same time if it's possible and let's go to S let's go to m o 6's 26
02:01:32 please uh and if we go please in that to page
02:01:36 page two and look at paragraph 3.16 at the foot of the block this is the the um scg note for the 630 meeting and it says there was a tweet by the
02:01:49 and it says there was a tweet by the gindel action group work on block in in paper to
02:01:53 paper to fire do you know what that was
02:01:58 about no sorry that's the 500 a.m. one I'm so sorry it's the 5 a.m. scg me treat by The Grille Action Group work on the Block linking paper to fire I I have
02:02:09 the Block linking paper to fire I I have absolutely no idea I'm sorry I I don't know what that means do you know what the context for well F first of all do you know who who who mentioned this who said there had been this
02:02:20 said there had been this tweet or Grenville action blog sorry the the paper the typed paper can you remind me what is this this is the note of the 5:30 sorry the 5:00 a.m. um London scg
02:02:32 5:30 sorry the 5:00 a.m. um London scg meeting whose note uh if we go to page one you can see this is the official London resilience partnership ah this is the SC the first scg meeting on the 14th all
02:02:46 right um I've no idea who within that group might have said that I mean don't think the fact that I've noted it down means that I heard somebody say it so therefore it wasn't me saying it right
02:02:57 therefore it wasn't me saying it right do you know what the relevance of that tweet was by the grenfell Action Group prior to the fire I don't know to this meeting I don't
02:03:09 know it doesn't appear in the typed log there's no mention of the tweet in that take that from me at rbk30 13296 Page 6 do you know why that is no I mean I
02:03:21 do you know why that is no I mean I would have assume the reference in the in in the scg meeting is that possibly somebody from from somebody's comm's team the police or somebody might have picked that tweet up and mentioned it
02:03:31 it um there may well have been other discussion in that meeting but um for all the reasons you've heard me say before I don't recall the detail of that sorry I can't answer your question did you yourself know anything about this
02:03:43 you yourself know anything about this tweet or this blog I'm pretty sure I didn't and I certainly obviously haven't mentioned it anywhere else from the scribbled notes um during the phone
02:03:56 call are you able to Enlighten us as to what relevance this historic tweet about this historic blog would have had to matters in hand
02:04:10 blog would have had to matters in hand at this first scg meeting at 5:00 a.m. on the morning of the 14th of June uh no I don't recall the it being said if if you have any context about what this tweet might have about that might
02:04:22 tweet might have about that might trigger memory but as we stand here at the moment I don't recall it and I'm afraid I'm not able to give you any context to it slightly different topic uh were you aware that rbkc as a
02:04:35 topic uh were you aware that rbkc as a local Authority had obligations under the equality act specifically section 149 the public sector equality Duty yes were you aware that
02:04:46 were you aware that specifically the council was to have due regard to the aims of the general equality Duty when making decisions and setting policies um I think I had a an awareness of that but I certainly
02:04:58 a an awareness of that but I certainly didn't have the detail of that do you ever have any training on the equality act no right do you agree that as rbkc civil contingency manager you had a a
02:05:09 civil contingency manager you had a a duty in that capacity to make sure that the council's Civil contingency plans and policies had had due regard to rbk's General equality Duty as imposed by that
02:05:20 General equality Duty as imposed by that legislation um specific to the words you've just said not in any formal way I mean I was aware as an employee of the of the local Authority that the local Authority had
02:05:32 Authority that the local Authority had commitments to equalities and what have you and that therefore necessarily anything I do must have awareness of that but I I I didn't have a formal
02:05:43 that but I I I didn't have a formal awareness of the specific wording that you've just quoted to me were you aware uh that chapter 5 of the CCA which deals with emergency planning specifically
02:05:54 with emergency planning specifically requires that plans should have regard to the vulnerable which it identifies as those with Mobility difficulties those with mental health difficulties or who are dependent such as children and
02:06:05 are dependent such as children and survivors and others affected and those directly affected by the emergency or the anxiety of not knowing what has happened I'm quoting there from chapter 5 did you know that
02:06:16 5 did you know that um I I mean I'm aware of the act in general I'm aware that our plans had within our callout procedures you know access to our mental health teams and
02:06:27 access to our mental health teams and access to others to make sure we could bring out whatever Services were needed I'm aware that our restr Center Annex with all of those listed premises had a statement on there as to whether they
02:06:38 statement on there as to whether they met the requirements of the the the disability Discrimination Act most of them did there were a couple of buildings in there which didn't from an access point of view but they were big and we couldn't ignore them but
02:06:49 and we couldn't ignore them but certainly the assessment that Keith Robbins made whenever he visited those premises very much took into line physical disabilities for example so I'd like to think that our awareness um without necessarily being
02:07:02 awareness um without necessarily being aware of line by line that chapter in the ACT we certainly had regards to the needs to be able to meet the needs of of people what about when it came to Communications which is governed by chapter 7 did you uh make take steps to
02:07:16 chapter 7 did you uh make take steps to make sure that the communications messages were appropriate to the targeted audience which would include those to whom uh the public sector equality Duty applied Communications were the responsibility of our
02:07:28 were the responsibility of our Communications team and our Communications team had their policies for whatever that might be so anything that the council would be communicating would be something which the communications team would manage not me
02:07:39 communications team would manage not me were you aware that the law required the public sector equality duty to be exercised with substance riger and with an open mind and in a way that whereby there was proper and conscientious focus on the statutory criteria
02:07:52 on the statutory criteria I think in Broad terms yes now against that background can I just show you a document that we've looked at before it's rbk30 is 36688 it's the burrow risk
02:08:03 it's rbk30 is 36688 it's the burrow risk register and if we go to page five in it you can
02:08:07 you can see I showed you this uh yesterday if you go to page five you can see that page five yeah at the top the first paragraph under the profile which we
02:08:19 paragraph under the profile which we read or at least read part of I certainly read you the part about the burrow of extremes you recall that yes and you confirmed yesterday that this was prepared with your um with your
02:08:30 was prepared with your um with your oversight under your control yes yes um and then you get um some statistics Under The Heading who we are and let's
02:08:41 Under The Heading who we are and let's have let's have those all on the page um you can see there and we looked at this before but uh you've got more than one fifth of all households have a first language not English
02:08:52 language not English uh and then you have other statistics which we can cast down and see um less than half the residents born in the UK 28% of the residents arrived in the UK between 2001 and 2011 the second highest
02:09:05 between 2001 and 2011 the second highest proportion after Westminster uh um second highest proportion of Arab residents 4% compared with 7% in
02:09:16 residents 4% compared with 7% in Westminster um Etc uh given your knowledge of the bur's prop population profile did you or your planning department conduct
02:09:27 you or your planning department conduct any equality impact assessment an eia as part of its contingency management planning and Arrangements no we did not why is that I don't think I was aware of
02:09:39 why is that I don't think I was aware of that degree of requirement and I certainly hadn't been instructed about that by my authority on my managers right
02:09:53 do you accept that you should have been if that is the act then then then
02:10:06 yes yes thank you very much um thank you yes I have no further questions for you at the moment um there may be others which um I may have looking back at my notes and which
02:10:17 looking back at my notes and which Others May want me to put to you so Mr chairman I'm going to ask for the usual break at this point if I may yes well Carrie when Council gets to the end of his questions we have to have a short
02:10:28 his questions we have to have a short break to allow him to just take stock but also to allow other people who follow the proceedings from elsewhere to perhaps suggest questions so we'll now M Mr milet how long do you think we might
02:10:39 Mr milet how long do you think we might need for this probably 15 minutes but no it should shouldn't be more than I'm going to save 25 passs very well thank you slightly short we'll come back at 25 4 please and then we'll see if there are any more questions for you thank you
02:10:51 any more questions for you thank you right thank you very
02:11:03 [Music] much thank you very much Mr M 2554
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02:24:04 would you ask Mr carry to come back in [Music]
02:24:15 please all right Mr Kerry well we'll see if there are any more questions for you thank you right thank you Mr Millet yes thank you very much Mr chairman uh Mr G
02:24:26 thank you very much Mr chairman uh Mr G I have no further questions for you other than the final question which we ask a number of Witnesses in particular positions of responsibility or knowledge uh and that is this looking back on all
02:24:37 uh and that is this looking back on all the evidence that we've we've looked at together over the last two days and looking back on the event itself and the events of the 14th 15th 16th of June is there anything you would have done
02:24:49 there anything you would have done differently yes yes and I think I've said a number of occasions in the last two days when you're acknowledging some of the situation matters that I've wished might have been
02:25:00 matters that I've wished might have been otherwise I mean I could sit here and probably list an awful lot of stuff that the benefit of this to say well look you know I should have said this to somebody at some point I should have been more
02:25:11 at some point I should have been more demonstrative The Authority has responsibility not me solely and I'm painfully aware of some of my failings
02:25:22 there are things I would do differently I I sorry I can't sit here and list them all but I i' I'd like to hope that during the course of yesterday certainly and at some point today I have given you acknowledgement of Errors I have given
02:25:34 acknowledgement of Errors I have given you acknowledgement of where had I and had the
02:25:38 had the authority individually or Together made other decisions there would might have been a better response
02:25:46 response I will repeat
02:25:54 my regrets and my apologies to the people of Grenville for those areas where we ought to have done better I will say there was an awful lot that we did do and particularly by the
02:26:06 that we did do and particularly by the time the London situation swung in the difficulty that the London group had in getting to grips with it I think absolutely demonstrates the scale of it
02:26:17 absolutely demonstrates the scale of it um I do think that the planning assign iions we worked to before did not meet this and I would hope that my colleagues still at work are looking at how that
02:26:28 still at work are looking at how that might be
02:26:29 might be improved um but we could have done better on training we could have done better on recruiting staff and part of that responsibility to the authority part of me I wish I had made more of a
02:26:40 part of me I wish I had made more of a noise at times rather than just being the DY for local Authority manager I
02:26:50 yeah I'm sorry I am
02:26:56 sorry well Mr Curry in R remains for me to thank you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely help grateful to you for that help so thank
02:27:08 grateful to you for that help so thank you very much thank you and Mr Kerry I'd certainly like to thank you on behalf of all three members of the panel you've given evidence for two days which is quite a long time and uh you have if I
02:27:19 quite a long time and uh you have if I may say so been very candid about some of the shortcomings for which we are obviously very grateful it's been very helpful to hear what you have to tell us and so we too are very grateful to you
02:27:30 and so we too are very grateful to you for coming to give your evidence thank you and and you are now free to go thank you right thank you very
02:27:45 much yes just a minute well that's obviously a convenient Point as far as today is concerned yes and we have another witness uh tomorrow morning is that right we do yes and Mr keting will
02:27:57 that right we do yes and Mr keting will be taking that witness well thank you very much uh we uh shall rise now then and uh resume at 10:00 tomorrow morning please thank you very much