Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea Evidence - Thursday 28th April 2022 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:21 so

00:00:32 yes mr keating good afternoon mr chairman could i call rebecca blackburn please thank you

00:00:45 good afternoon mr blackburn you're going to a firm i believe yep right the words are on the screen would you read them out please i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i

00:00:56 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much please sit down and make stuff comfortable

00:01:07 right yes mr keating thank you first thing is blackburn thank you so much for attending today and assisting the inquiry with his investigations um just a few introductory matters if i

00:01:18 um just a few introductory matters if i may which we say to all witnesses but just to assist you i hope today firstly could i invite you to keep your voice up as best you can so a subscriber can capture evidence also to assist if you don't nod or shake

00:01:31 also to assist if you don't nod or shake your head but say yes or no as appropriate because it won't be captured okay transcripts lastly if there's any difficulties with any of my questions just just let me know is that okay yes and i should have

00:01:43 know is that okay yes and i should have said if you need a break at any time again that's something which if you let us know i'm sure we can accommodate okay a couple of former matters is just in relation to your witness statements and

00:01:54 relation to your witness statements and you've provided two witness statements to inquiry and firstly if we could go to obk triple zero three five three six four that should be on the screen right in front of you now

00:02:05 in front of you now swagburn yes and this is your first witness statement to inquiry that's dated the 17th of january 2019 if we could turn to page 12 please

00:02:17 12 please that provides the date i just read out your name and could you confirm that's your signature yes that is my signature thank you

00:02:24 thank you and secondly your second statement if we could go to obk triple zero five eight one seven zero

00:02:34 yes and if we could go to page 19

00:02:41 that's dated the 13th of may 2020 again your name in full name set out there and could you confirm that's your signature yes that is my signature and have you had the

00:02:52 is my signature and have you had the opportunity to read both those statements yes absolutely and can you confirm that their contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes thank you

00:03:02 if we could have your first statements open please at paragraph six and it's going to ask you a few questions about your background and your role while it's employed by the royal bureau of kensington and chelsea at

00:03:13 bureau of kensington and chelsea at paragraph six and it's set out there from 2010

00:03:18 2010 until after this incident in september 2017

00:03:22 2017 you were employed in the contingency planning unit is that correct yes it is correct and you set out your studies pre-employment at rbk see you to study disastered management at the university

00:03:33 disastered management at the university of coventry yes that's correct and that's when after graduation you applied for and obtained a job as an assistant contingency planner at all bkc in september 2020

00:03:44 september 2020 2010 thank you yes that's correct 2010 and a year later you were promoted to the role of a contingency planning officer and you remained in that post until your departure in 2017. yes that's correct

00:03:55 departure in 2017. yes that's correct thank you

00:04:00 at the time of the fire you had approximately seven years working experience in this field yes that is correct and do you consider at the time of the grenville tower of fire that you were experienced in contingency planning in

00:04:12 experienced in contingency planning in this field yes i would say sorry

00:04:16 in relation to the contingency planning unit which you worked in

00:04:20 worked in there was three people there including you isn't that correct david curry and keith robbins yes that's correct and throughout your time at rbkc was it the case that david curry was your

00:04:31 the case that david curry was your manager yes uh throughout apart from i did do us a comment to the events team for

00:04:38 for i think about 18 months and your time within the contingency planning unit david was always my manager yes yes

00:04:48 and in relation to your working relationship we've heard some evidence this morning about your working relationship with david curry what was it a good working relationship we had very different opinions in terms

00:05:00 we had very different opinions in terms of how to get things done i would say i was more of a doer more like once i've got an idea do it get it done get it signed off get

00:05:12 do it get it done get it signed off get it into action whereas david was much more of a he thought about things a lot more he wanted to plan everything he wanted to

00:05:23 wanted to plan everything he wanted to say one thing or he wanted to do do he wanted to do things but he always wanted to go the really long way around it whereas

00:05:34 go the really long way around it whereas with me as soon as i had an idea or noticed a gap or noticed anything was wrong i wanted it filled and i think that's where we differed so where i was i like there's a there's a hole there it

00:05:45 i like there's a there's a hole there it needs to be plugged this is how you do it

00:05:48 it and david was more okay you recognize this whole now going give me a million and one solutions to deal with this hole i will take those million one solution somewhere else and get someone else to

00:06:00 somewhere else and get someone else to look over it and then that would where the difference i would say the professional the difference in professional was in terms of the end game we both had the same end

00:06:11 the end game we both had the same end game

00:06:12 game but i was just very much more if it needs doing do it rather than let's just talk about it for about a year and then do something about it so you've described

00:06:23 you've described in detail the different styles you had in terms of how to work in that field did your working relationship impact the operation of the contingency planning unit adversely no

00:06:38 and in relation to your role um can you tell me what your role specifically was back in 2017 in the department um in 2017

00:06:50 2017 in the department um in 2017 i

00:06:51 i for a long time now um

00:06:54 um i know i was doing i was just about to start a brand new training and exercising program this is an example of the two different ways that we work

00:07:06 two different ways that we work i knew there was a gap there so once i came back from the comment i noticed that the number of back officers dropped off um the amount of exercises that have

00:07:17 um the amount of exercises that have occurred they only took place in just the london ones they didn't do any of their own so i was like well this needs to change so i said i'll take charge of that

00:07:27 that but then um when i came back we just had a unified response

00:07:33 response which following that there was going to be this whole new standardization against back officers and david had asked me to hold back on the training and exercising until that

00:07:44 the training and exercising until that piece of work came out because he said otherwise i'm just going to have to train him all over again however in my opinion that was then leaving a massive gap okay there's a lot there sorry don't worry we're going to

00:07:57 there sorry don't worry we're going to cover it and i'm going to pick up a number of things you said in the course of questioning and perhaps in the next half an hour or so okay so you mentioned your role and the areas

00:08:08 so you mentioned your role and the areas that you were specializing in which we will

00:08:11 will and perhaps we could deal with it would assist everybody actually to

00:08:17 to confirm when you return back from your secondment i think i can't it was after notting hill 2016 so it would have been either october or november okay

00:08:31 so you turn back after your secondment you described how there was issues in relation to bec officers lack of capacity there which you've heard about already yes and was that an area in your view of concern

00:08:43 was that an area in your view of concern that there was a lack of trained back officers um yes um to be honest i noticed it further back because obviously we had the olympics in 2012.

00:08:54 obviously we had the olympics in 2012. and i did all the recruitment and training for the office of the olympics i had a bank of or bear in mind they were getting paid so more people did come forward

00:09:05 come forward but we had a bank of about 25 trained officers all throughout council um and then unfortunately i had to go off alternatively very quickly came back from maternity leave and again

00:09:18 came back from maternity leave and again that had gone down to eight so from that 20 and that's when i picked it up initially

00:09:23 initially so i did it was picked up really really early once i came back and then that's kind of why i went on to comment because i started making noises and they were like no we'll just put you on to comment well that's i'm gonna i'm

00:09:35 on to comment well that's i'm gonna i'm not ignoring that no no that's right but let's let's put that in context okay in relation to the bec officers mentioned in 2012 they were paid yes the volunteers yes and the volunteers as of

00:09:47 volunteers yes and the volunteers as of 2017 and that reduced number of eights were not paid yeah well the plan was always um because i said the amount of training that we did for the olympics it was always to carry that on because

00:09:59 it was always to carry that on because it was a lot they knew exactly how to do it they knew how to answer phones they knew how to respond they knew how to work the systems so i said the plan was that although yes going forward they

00:10:11 that although yes going forward they wouldn't get paid but at least we've got that bank of people and to be honest i don't know why that was never carried on okay well let's deal with the i want to deal with the topic of testing of emergency plans and

00:10:24 emergency plans and the panel have heard about the rbkc contingency management plan which i know that you're familiar with and that that plan shall be exercised at least once annually to test and validate

00:10:35 least once annually to test and validate the activation of the plan yes there's been evidence heard in relation to that perhaps we could look at paragraph 12 of your statement if we could scroll down to assist you

00:10:47 to assist you most boroughs undertake regular testing of emergency plans this helps iron out any difficulties ensures that everyone knows what to do however in my view the borough's plans had not been properly tested we did not

00:11:00 had not been properly tested we did not undertake sufficient large-scale emergency simulations instead the cpu contingency planning unit held the odd mini exercise

00:11:11 held the odd mini exercise was that the position yes as i saw it yes

00:11:17 and there's anything else you wanted to expand upon in relation to why you considered the borough's plans had not been properly tested from what i saw once i came back from

00:11:28 from what i saw once i came back from secondment looking back through very little records that they had the only um exercises that i saw was um

00:11:39 was um exercise babble i think it was which i was still on second when that took place so i didn't i didn't take place in that one um and all the others were just your regular safe city

00:11:50 regular safe city connect it was just the ones that lfb put on there was no actual exercise that the borough put on specifically just to test their plans yes i think we know that babbler babel was babel yeah yes

00:12:02 that babbler babel was babel yeah yes was in i think november 2016.

00:12:07 and you were still either way i didn't take part in it so i think it might have been because i didn't wasn't included in the planning as well okay and in terms of

00:12:19 and in terms of the cpu held the odd mini exercise what do you mean by that's the odd mini exercise they're the small lfb so years not your safe city i think it's

00:12:30 not your safe city i think it's exercise prepared those ones we've heard a number of different [Music]

00:12:36 [Music] labels through exercises i think we know the ones you talk about it relates to yeah it's just it's the small ones that just test like the communication aspects

00:12:48 and in your second statement which i'm not gonna invite you to look at you list six external exercises largely organized through london resilience that obc participated between 2015 2017 we've

00:13:02 participated between 2015 2017 we've heard evidence in relation to those but did you consider whether those were sufficient to ensure that all bkc's emergency plans were appropriately tested if they were done properly they would

00:13:14 if they were done properly they would have been sufficient and it begs the question what do you mean if they were done properly was it not done properly in your view or because no um

00:13:25 your view or because no um very often we did the very least we had to do so whether it was just okay lfb want you to send in a sit rep at this time that's what we'll do and that's us

00:13:37 that's what we'll do and that's us exercising when it isn't that's just us filling in a form and sending it off looking like we're exercising okay so just exploring that for a moment

00:13:48 okay so just exploring that for a moment you're saying that we do the very least was your view that or bkc in relation to there was that participation during the very least was it because that it was capacity was it attitude was a

00:14:00 capacity was it attitude was a commitment what was it i think it's a bit of all three to be honest um so we did struggle with staff um you've heard that we have had a we've

00:14:12 um you've heard that we have had a we've we had a major issue with getting staff on board

00:14:15 on board and also i think there was a culture of not wanting to ask as well

00:14:21 as well so people were afraid to go can you take part in this this is why no one really explained to anyone the benefits of why the contingency planning team was there

00:14:34 the contingency planning team was there we were just there to maybe just put a bottom on a seat that's how sometimes it came across because we weren't obvious enough and we kind of kept in our own little

00:14:47 and we kind of kept in our own little department and it was only when we went fully open plan that people kind of even knew who we were before we were in the annex no one even saw us i don't think

00:14:58 annex no one even saw us i don't think anyone even knew we were there so when we went open plan it was a bit different

00:15:03 different but i think at times david as well was afraid to ask okay can i just going to explore some of what you said

00:15:13 you said so there was the visibility within the organization yes mentioned that contingency planning wasn't visible and there was a lack of it is fair a lack of awareness of who you were and

00:15:25 lack of awareness of who you were and what you did yeah yeah the only time people generally got emails from us was when we did our business continuity renewal and that was an email with a form fill it out and

00:15:37 an email with a form fill it out and then they never heard anything from our skin and then until the following year and i think that's the routine that that unit got into

00:15:46 into you mentioned that there's a culture of not asking wanting to ask yeah and are you talking about within your units where you worked to three of you that was a culture of not wanting to ask

00:15:57 that was a culture of not wanting to ask yes

00:16:00 are you are you suggesting it's wider than that within the council

00:16:05 council local authority as a whole i think when i because when i finally got out

00:16:13 got out and spoke to people everyone was more than happy to work with us whenever i put on the not in here exercises everyone was more than happy to work with us

00:16:22 with us so i don't think it was as a culture within the council i think it was more um

00:16:29 um and a wrong perception from david that people

00:16:32 people don't aren't willing to give up their time because they were

00:16:37 and in relation to people not willing to give their time was the

00:16:42 was the the position that rbkc didn't pay people was was that a factor in a lack of interest or ability to act as a or bkc volunteer

00:16:53 volunteer i think it did become a factor towards the end especially when we um was working so closely with hammersmith and fulham because they had a paid rotor and obviously officers speak to each

00:17:04 and obviously officers speak to each other they did work very closely especially in the byboro waste because a lot of the their the hnf officers were on that rotor yes getting paid for doing work in

00:17:15 rotor yes getting paid for doing work in hampton fulham so when we or when they were asked to do rbkc why are they getting paid why aren't we so i think the payment towards the end

00:17:25 the end but only when we started working more by borough

00:17:28 borough before that like i said i just think david thought everyone was going to say no okay

00:17:34 no okay well you've we've explored in to an extent what you've raised about concerns as to the lack of training and testing and i just wanted to ask what

00:17:46 testing and i just wanted to ask what the circumstances in which you raised this who did you raise it with i've raised it with every

00:17:54 every um senior director that i've had um way back to when graham was there which is before tony redpath i've raised it with tony

00:18:05 tony redpath i've raised it with tony redpath i've raised it with stuart priestley i raised it with the interim community safety officer i think his name was david he came from roadbridge i raised it with him

00:18:16 roadbridge i raised it with him um i've raised it with everyone okay um

00:18:21 um and obviously we've had stuart priestley who's given evidence yes and tony redpath was in his post at that time in relation to perhaps those individuals later in your time at rbkc

00:18:34 individuals later in your time at rbkc focusing on those what what was the response when you raised this um the response from tony redpath i remember it was when we had our new officers so we were in this class room and i mentioned

00:18:45 and i mentioned that we didn't have enough staff we had not exercised enough and i also um said i don't think um david could cope if we had a major incident and his response

00:18:56 had a major incident and his response was well he's been doing this job for this amount of years he's the advisor to the lap panel he's this he's a professional he'll cope

00:19:10 and in relation to do you recall your contact contact with mr priestley on this topic um

00:19:17 um stewart just said he'd raise it with david

00:19:22 and i promised i would return to what you mentioned earlier on where you raised it and raised this and then put me on secondment and after you i think you said you noise you raised yes i'm

00:19:34 you said you noise you raised yes i'm paraphrasing perhaps slightly no it's fine and did you want to expand upon that how did that come about you mentioned you raised these concerns and then you mentioned secondment perhaps you could it was when we had the interim

00:19:46 you could it was when we had the interim boss in so david who i can't remember his last name um

00:19:51 um it become really really sketchy between me and david because i think i was so disappointed after coming back from maternity leave at how bad the department had got

00:20:02 at how bad the department had got i was being very vocal on how much we were lacking obviously no one wants that from a member of staff and i think maybe sometimes i probably may have gone a bit

00:20:13 sometimes i probably may have gone a bit about it the wrong kind of like my meduanian way so um

00:20:18 so um and

00:20:19 and then it turned out that rather than addressing my complaints they

00:20:25 they the events team had a gap i'd already done a lot of work with nottingham obviously i'd done the olympics so it was kind of like it's a natural fit and for me i was

00:20:36 it's a natural fit and for me i was happy because it got me away from the team

00:20:38 team and because i wasn't happy um but it also stopped me from making noises at the same time

00:20:45 same time again to put this into context we've had a few significant time markers in your life we had olympics you mentioned going off maternity leave which i think was after the olympics yeah literally just

00:20:56 after the olympics yeah literally just after and when did you return back um i didn't return back until july 2013. july 2013 yes and we know that you returned from secondment around

00:21:09 from secondment around october november 2016. so can you recall when you went on secondment for how long it was i think

00:21:19 i think it was

00:21:20 it was um

00:21:22 um april or may 2014 okay

00:21:27 2014 okay because i think it lasted it was only meant to be a six months of comment but it kept

00:21:32 it kept getting made longer so we're looking at july 2013 to may 2014 return from eternity leave raise your concerns

00:21:41 concerns unhappy working relationship with david curry yes and for for those reasons it seemed that there was a gap in this other team and it seemed that it was a the right time for you to move across on a second yeah

00:21:53 for you to move across on a second yeah it was an easy fit and is that a fair summary of yes okay

00:21:58 okay and then we know you come back 2016 and you set out how things hadn't changed no nothing had changed in fact i think it got worse and then you raise your concerns again yes

00:22:10 raise your concerns again yes yes

00:22:18 and in your view did a lack of testing and exercising of all bkc's plans affect the actual response to the grenville tower fire absolutely in what sense

00:22:30 in what sense um

00:22:31 um people weren't 100 aware of what they were doing also i think

00:22:37 i think we'd never done an out of hours activation exercise so

00:22:42 so you've seen the contingency management plan many times over the last couple of days

00:22:46 days and in there it's got a clear kind diagram what you need to do and who you need to call and which route you go down

00:22:56 down that was never exercised and

00:23:00 and although that contingency management plan is updated every year david when he first did the first one which i can't remember which year the first one was it hasn't changed since

00:23:12 first one was it hasn't changed since then the activation process hasn't changed

00:23:15 changed so if you

00:23:17 so if you and i don't think they kept a record of what actual the changes were but those activation chain those activation processes are exactly the same in 2013 as they were in 2017.

00:23:29 same in 2013 as they were in 2017. they'd never once been activated so

00:23:33 so to see what happened then on the 14th isn't really a surprise because

00:23:39 because yes david wrote the plan himself but he wrote it back in 2013. if if that's not routinely exercised or routinely practiced then

00:23:50 then it will fall down and in my opinion i think that's where it was lost grenfell okay we'll

00:23:59 we'll come back to that question perhaps as we go through the the evidence and there's anything else you think where was significant and we could touch upon it but just deal with by briefly by

00:24:10 but just deal with by briefly by overview with the bec training and we've probably covered this already but perhaps by summary is that you were responsible for arranging the training of becca officers yes

00:24:21 yes you've mentioned the difficulties with recruitment um

00:24:25 um am i writing understanding that when you return back in november 2016 and you were trying to devise a new training plan yes that was posed because of awaiting beck standardization yes so i

00:24:39 awaiting beck standardization yes so i had already divided and i think you've seen a copy of it and the actual training schedule what units i was going to do and i was in the process i've already done the first unit which was the

00:24:50 done the first unit which was the introduction to emergency planning because what i always found with back officers was that they wanted to do it but they didn't understand really why they were there and unless you understand why you're actually in the

00:25:02 understand why you're actually in the room that you're in and why you're doing what you're doing you you're never really going to fully apply yourself or fully understand so my first unit as such was

00:25:13 first unit as such was introduction to emergency planning which told them all about the council all about the biggest structure understanding how they fit into other arrangements understand how they fit into the 33 london boroughs

00:25:25 fit into the 33 london boroughs and that i'd actually delivered but then was told to pause before we go in to do the actual kind of logistical bit like this person does this this person does this because

00:25:37 does this this person does this because of the standardization okay i want to show you an email which may come somewhere in this sequence as you described okay maybe a little bit earlier in the sequence but let's see it's obk

00:25:49 it's obk triple zero six eight three one eight please

00:25:57 okay so it's date it's the 8th of december 2016. you you're back from you to stewart priestly training schedule

00:26:07 schedule hi short here's a training schedule on monday i sent an email around to our current back offices and supervisors asked if they were happy to continue and when did the day last received training one supervisor and three officers have

00:26:19 one supervisor and three officers have dropped out the last training the officers can remember was the exercise that you were a controller with in october 2015 some officers have said to me that they would not be happy to protect partake in

00:26:31 would not be happy to protect partake in another exercise without training does that assist you in terms of the circumstances that you were operating at that time yes so i'd already written the

00:26:42 that time yes so i'd already written the training schedule that you've seen yes sent that to stuart and

00:26:46 and it was after this that i did that first unit

00:26:49 unit because i said because at the time looking at i think probably one of the lfb

00:26:54 lfb exercises was probably due to happen because they did happen routinely twice throughout the year and generally normal normally at the same time

00:27:03 time so this would have been just as one of those exercises coming up and to be honest they all did say that to me they said how can we take part in an exercise if we haven't been trained

00:27:14 we haven't been trained because i think from their point of view even though we're not testing them we're testing our procedures it could be that we're setting them up for a fall which obviously was never the point because it's our procedures that we need to test

00:27:26 it's our procedures that we need to test but they weren't willing which made sense to me okay so from this email which is november 2016 it appears that the last back training was in october

00:27:38 training was in october 2015. that was the exercise that's exercise yeah well the last training the officers can remember was the exercise yeah so both words are in there is it the case that the last training that they received some of this was when

00:27:50 that they received some of this was when you were on secondment was back in october 2015. it could have been yes

00:27:58 so you've raised issues in relation to training and exercises and did you think as of june 2017 that the training and exercises available to the back officers

00:28:10 exercises available to the back officers was sufficient so that they were equipped to deal with the grenville tower fire

00:28:21 one last matter which is in relation to the minimum standards for london and again i think on tuesday we've heard evidence in relation to this yes there was a self-assessment which was

00:28:33 was a self-assessment which was submitted by rbkc in 2016. yes probably in april

00:28:38 in april 2016 so you were not there yes and the entry for training i'm going to we heard this already for rbkc was ranked as amber

00:28:46 amber operational but requires development and there's a number of submissions in this spreadsheet which is seen and it says training analysis is currently being updated and training is currently being reviewed and a new training analysis is

00:28:59 reviewed and a new training analysis is being undertaken when you came back from october november 2016

00:29:06 2016 you've mentioned doing some training analysis was there a wider training analysis being undertaken no no that's just words on a piece of paper i misheard what you said there i said

00:29:17 i misheard what you said there i said that's just words on a piece of paper there was never a training analysis done not from what i could see so when you were returned back from october november 2016 in your view that there wasn't any substance to what was

00:29:29 there wasn't any substance to what was submitted no in the msl no

00:29:34 i'm going to move on now to um the response to the grenville tower of fire and events on the 14th of june if that's okay yep

00:29:43 okay yep and

00:29:43 and in terms of headings to assist you because we're not going to cover every single point but notification and early communications so dealing with that heading first subheading is it right that david curry

00:29:56 subheading is it right that david curry notified you of the fire by phone at 5 20 on the 14th of june yes that's what you set out in your statement at paragraph 16.

00:30:08 paragraph 16. and what did he say to you when he contacted you there's a fire in a tower block it's not it's bad

00:30:15 it's bad it's really bad so i said what is it he said it's a fire in a tower block people

00:30:22 people are injured he might have mentioned people have died um

00:30:28 um he said a rest center's been open but he said don't rush in come in at 8. you mentioned your statement that he was a pain so stressed that you should not

00:30:39 a pain so stressed that you should not rush in yeah he did he did he was said don't do not rush in come in normal time eight o'clock and did you query that with him not at the time

00:30:50 query that with him not at the time because he told me it's a fire in a tower block in london a fire in a tower block is very different to a tower block on fire which obviously what it was so for him to tell me it's a fire on a tower block that in my head was okay

00:31:04 tower block that in my head was okay may have

00:31:05 may have implications for the people involved in the

00:31:08 the in the flat itself and maybe the surrounding flats or and it could just be a large-scale evacuation of say a tower block that's what i initially had in my head when he said a fire in a tower block

00:31:21 when he said a fire in a tower block okay and did he say whether he contacted anybody else he said that he had phoned elaine and she was on her way in that's elaine chondre yes back officer yes um and in relation to stewart

00:31:33 yes um and in relation to stewart priestley i don't think you mentioned him on the phone and is it right that towards the end of the conversation he said i'm still in my flats and i'll head into the back soon yes

00:31:43 yes and then he signed off with by the way it's all over the news okay

00:31:49 okay so what did you do after turned on the knees okay and then that's where your assessment yes changed from fire and a tower block yes as you described a few moments ago yes

00:32:13 do you think he should have contacted you earlier than 5 20 he needed to have contacted someone whether that would have been me or not i don't know but he

00:32:23 he the amount of stuff that he needed to do or the amount of calls he needed to make not one person could have done that um like i said there's a clear

00:32:34 um like i said there's a clear activation protocol that was not followed and because that wasn't followed the right people weren't called up in the right positions

00:32:45 the right positions and i don't think the scale of

00:32:49 of the incident had really drilled down on him the fact that he told me it was a fire in a tower block and then as soon as i turned on the news i knew straight away that we were in

00:33:01 i knew straight away that we were in trouble

00:33:01 trouble because i knew if he had told if he'd given me the correct or to at least said that a major incident or that

00:33:13 it's like as bad as it is then i would have kind of understood where where he's coming from but as soon as he said it's firing towel block it's all over the knees i turned on the news

00:33:24 on the news i saw what i saw i knew that the right people that things were going to go awry because

00:33:32 because the bec should have been opened by the time it even if

00:33:37 if things had been followed the bec should have been opened three o'clock four o'clock okay i just want to

00:33:45 want to draw out something from what you said in your second statement that's rbk triple zero five eight one seven zero paragraph five point one

00:33:56 please

00:34:07 thank you

00:34:14 okay

00:34:16 you stay there i would have expected david to contact me or bkc contingency planning officer keith urba keith robbins earlier to have assisted with making phone calls to the back officers

00:34:28 making phone calls to the back officers the on-site team and i.t to establish the back that's what you just said a moment ago yes it's the effect of that i'm trying to focus upon here yep and your assistance as it was

00:34:38 as it was david curry was performing the functions of controller managing the incident and the beck duty officer

00:34:46 officer i believe that david carey should have relinquished one of these those roles because the scaled incident was such that one person alone could not discharge the functions of both

00:34:57 discharge the functions of both controller and beck duty officer and council silver all at the same time i missed that bit in that bit yes so there's a lot of terminology there yeah and to lay person it may not be

00:35:08 yeah and to lay person it may not be immediate so what does that mean in essence so he's in his he's in his front room he's got his laptop open yes and this is what's going on

00:35:19 and this is what's going on and you just he is the beck at that stage

00:35:22 stage yes

00:35:23 yes where does controller judy officer silver come in why is it too difficult for one person because of the one the amount of phone calls you've got so he

00:35:34 amount of phone calls you've got so he what he needed to do was he needed to get a full bank of the full back up and running with the officers the information officers a logist set up

00:35:46 information officers a logist set up you can't do all that because of our systems we don't have what as some other borrowers have which is a text alert system so as soon as an

00:35:58 text alert system so as soon as an incident comes in you press a button everyone is on this rotor gets a text so they know that there's a chance that they're gonna have to be called in you can preset it so it says please come to the town hall

00:36:09 please come to the town hall we don't have that the only way of us contacting people is by physically picking up a phone and dialing their number

00:36:17 number if you're on the phone to someone you can't then be on the phone to someone else who's maybe trying to get information to you so for example if you take the silver roll silver you're you're now in charge

00:36:30 roll silver you're you're now in charge of that tactical element for the council how can you do that at the same time as also trying to control the back which is doing the phone call making sure people are there

00:36:40 are there at the same time as also keeping an eye on the borough as well because

00:36:45 because i think keith robbins was out of contact for some reason so the owner and i know that um nick layton

00:36:52 layton and mike rumble was at the scene so david

00:36:58 so david by default was also the duty officer at that time because there was no one else to manage the borough so if something else popped up so you can't that's why i'm saying you can't be

00:37:09 can't be that person and do all those things all at the same time one you've only got one mobile phone you've only got one line

00:37:17 line so

00:37:18 so it was completely impossible for him to discharge all of his duties to his full ability if you're only doing it by yourself so on your account he's

00:37:29 so on your account he's by that decision he's placed himself in an impossible position yes

00:37:35 shortly after your call with david curry at

00:37:38 at o520 yes

00:37:41 o520 yes um again from your statement we don't need to turn into it's paragraph 17. at 0.50 you're contacted by elaine chumnery yes um and was it the case that she told you

00:37:52 um and was it the case that she told you that two rest centers had been set up yes but she didn't know where they were yes

00:37:57 yes [Applause] um i'm not going to ask you about the missing key which we've heard a bit about that already but i wanted to focus on

00:38:05 on one part of conversation would you

00:38:09 would you mention in your one of your interviews you provided to obkc

00:38:15 obkc and where

00:38:16 and where is it the case that she told you when she arrived elaine chumney at the town hall that she came across two people who were displaced by the fire yes sitting on the steps of the town hall okay

00:38:27 on the steps of the town hall okay so she'd arrived earlier so prior to this call at 05 550 yes two two survivors from the fire were on the steps yes that's what you're talking about

00:38:39 what you're talking about and

00:38:40 and this is what you say in your interview they were sat there on the steps they had been evacuated on fire and she had to send them back to near the tower yeah she's i think she sent them to one of the reception centers in the uber that

00:38:52 the reception centers in the uber that she got to the town hall she's just then put them back in the uber and sent them to

00:38:59 to um because i think by that time she might have known where one of them were i don't know if that's where i think she sent them back to well that's why i wanted to clarify whether you had the phone call you didn't she didn't know at

00:39:11 phone call you didn't she didn't know at that time of the phone call that where the rest centers were yep if she was sending people back to locality was the case actually that she was sending people back where there wasn't knowledge of where the rest

00:39:23 there wasn't knowledge of where the rest centers were to be honest i don't know she didn't actually tell me where she sent them back to

00:39:29 back to so

00:39:32 okay i'm gonna move on to your arrival at the town hall so you had this these phone calls just before six o'clock in the morning yes and you

00:39:43 six o'clock in the morning yes and you lived at that time some distance away from

00:39:46 from from the

00:39:48 from the from kensington in fact you were in kent yes

00:39:51 yes is it right that you decided to leave early yes yeah as soon as i saw the news i literally was up out the door

00:39:59 the door and you got there doing your best up out the door at 7 20. yeah 7 20-ish yes yeah according to time in your statement yeah but

00:40:08 but approximately then um let's deal with the scene as as you described it when you arrived at 720 at kensington town hall was the beck in

00:40:19 at kensington town hall was the beck in operation

00:40:21 in in the fact that there were people in there okay so it was operating we'll talk about okay how well it was operating in a moment but yes there were people in there yes yes and how many people were there in the

00:40:33 and how many people were there in the holiday room a lot a lot i would say about maybe 15 or 20.

00:40:42 how would you describe the the room as you

00:40:45 you as you entered it in terms of the the new the atmosphere its operation it wasn't great no one knew what they were doing um

00:40:57 you had a lane at the back writing on a whiteboard you had

00:41:04 you had people just sitting around none of the computers were logged on and if they were logged on it was like you just had the front screen so nothing had been opened

00:41:16 screen so nothing had been opened um

00:41:17 um could you pause there for a moment just on the dealing with the computers so let's do the i t we've heard about the ils

00:41:25 the ils yes

00:41:26 yes it can be accessed it couldn't be accessed no and how clear are you about any issues with accessing ils this is the it system at 7 20

00:41:36 at 7 20 it happened all the time okay but did it happen on that morning yes every time we've set up the deck for like say if we were getting ready for an exercise we always had to do it the day

00:41:47 exercise we always had to do it the day before

00:41:48 before because you can never get into the ils system because you always have to go in clear all the cookies or something technical the it team always used to do it

00:41:58 it um and then you'd have to re-log back in okay

00:42:05 so the computers were on as you describe it but it was only one screen that was was visible yeah it was just as as when you log on to a computer it's your first screen that you see it was it was that screen and not all of them were logged

00:42:16 screen and not all of them were logged into i think only two were um

00:42:19 um you had

00:42:20 you had uh stuart at the back he had his own work laptop so he was fine so he could access everything um but none of the others could we'll talk about the beck log and what you did

00:42:33 talk about the beck log and what you did later on in a month in a little while but

00:42:37 but in terms of a backlog being open and and visible on the ils could you see any better no no

00:42:47 no and again perhaps to explain to a lay person

00:42:50 person how would anyone see whether a back log had been opened well first of all you need to log into the system you need to log into the ils system and it's that that we couldn't do okay so that's how i

00:43:02 that we couldn't do okay so that's how i know that a backlog wasn't open or if it was open it had been open from somewhere outside of the back because none of those vet computers could log on to the ils system

00:43:14 could log on to the ils system so you mentioned in relation to the it that every time you did this in terms of exercises you would have to set it up the day before yes so was it the case that there was a

00:43:25 so was it the case that there was a long-standing issue in terms of the i.t systems yes

00:43:31 and and had this been raised yes

00:43:36 many times every time an exercise always raised it with david and i think we've seen an email where perhaps a few weeks beforehand that there was efforts by mr curry to try to

00:43:47 there was efforts by mr curry to try to change and get an upgrade in relation to i.t yes were you aware of that i wasn't actually until i watched it okay but

00:43:56 but the issues were still occurring yes 14th of june i'd like just because i interrupted you as you were describing that the situation when you went into the back but perhaps there's a feature you could

00:44:08 but perhaps there's a feature you could assist us with if we open up your interview with um or bkc or bk

00:44:16 or bk 0029019

00:44:20 and this is an interview which you provided to assist or bkc it's on the 23rd of march 2018. it's not a police interview anything like this it's something called project athena

00:44:32 athena and you were there and asked some questions

00:44:34 questions and if we could turn to page two please the third paragraph

00:44:44 and

00:44:48 we see your description at the first first sentence third paragraph when i arrived at town hall i was trying to find out what was going on it was complete pandemonium

00:44:59 complete pandemonium there was a lot of people there i didn't recognize

00:45:02 recognize and it goes forward yes is that

00:45:05 is that an accurate description of how things were

00:45:09 were yes

00:45:11 yes yes

00:45:13 did you consider that although it was busy it was an organized beck and it wasn't organized

00:45:22 organized it wasn't no no for a bet to be organized people need to have designated jobs designated roles they need to be allocated to certain phones they need to know

00:45:33 they need to know what they're doing they need to there needs to be a flow of information people were picking up phones here there and everywhere the main people that were actually picking up the phones were laura

00:45:45 picking up the phones were laura johnson's housing officers as they were the only ones in the council at that time because she had already been proactive and got her officers already in already ready

00:45:56 in already ready so

00:45:57 so they were actually being used not for the purpose of what they should have been used for but they were being used there to answer the phones um so i would say no that's not an organized bec an organized bec you'd

00:46:09 organized bec an organized bec you'd have people there that were actually trained to be in that deck

00:46:16 and that's not been would it suggest to me that this has been a bit critical that people were busy doing their best and it may have looked

00:46:26 looked as you described it but it was functioning appropriately i don't think it was functioning appropriately because information was being missed if it was functioning appropriately when

00:46:37 if it was functioning appropriately when i had walked in and asked someone where are the rest centers how many people have we got in them i would have been able to know that instead i got we think there's two or three there might even be

00:46:50 there's two or three there might even be more

00:46:51 more we don't know how many people are at each rest center there's no real way of finding out because we've got no staff on the ground when

00:47:01 when in reality we had two lelos at the scene we didn't need two lelos at the scene one of those could have gone round to the rest centers to at least clarify which ones are definitely open which

00:47:13 which ones are definitely open which ones are definitely sharp and how many people roughly are in each um

00:47:18 um rest center okay so just on picking some things you said which is covers some of my next questions so i'm just going to go back a little bit in relation to what you said there

00:47:33 in terms of rest centers the information was we think there's two or three there might have been more

00:47:40 but there was no certainty as to the number of rest centers nor how many people were in them correct

00:47:49 and how do you feel in terms of someone who's experienced in this field for seven years you arrived at the beck

00:48:01 at the beck five hours into the incident had taken place

00:48:04 place and what was your assessment then we'd already lost it by then

00:48:13 were you concerned yes

00:48:22 and it may have been touched upon already but just just by amplification in terms of obk staff

00:48:30 you mentioned two layla's at the scene local authority laser officers was there anybody else at the scene at that stage no

00:48:42 i want to move on to

00:48:45 just before 8 30 we know that there was an scg strategic coordination group beating

00:48:52 beating where nicholas holgate and others attended perhaps we could open up your first statement please at paragraph 21

00:49:05 thank you very much

00:49:12 by 810 nicholas holgate and tony redpat were inside the back davis curry and i had a meeting with them i'm going to just pause there for a second

00:49:22 second i'm going to ask you about that meeting all right

00:49:26 how would you describe the mood when the four of you spoke you were there david curry and two senior people tony redpath and nicholas holgate

00:49:38 redpath and nicholas holgate i didn't say a lot i was just there as david literally grabbed me and went rebecca you need to come here and he

00:49:50 said something about an sg an scg meeting that the four of us need to attend

00:49:56 attend i did question whether i was the right person to attend as a i'd only just been there i didn't know anything really i only knew what was written on the back of the room with the whiteboard that's

00:50:07 of the room with the whiteboard that's all i knew um

00:50:11 um but david said no you need to come and attend and we all went into a room so before the scg minutes took place meeting took place forgive me was anything discussed amongst the four of

00:50:23 anything discussed amongst the four of you prior to the meeting about the ability for bkc to deal with the response

00:50:29 response not that i can recall nothing that jumps out

00:50:33 out was there any discussion at that stage regarding getting help outside of all bkc including invoking the provisions of the london gold resolution no not before the scg meeting not before the scg

00:50:46 the scg meeting not before the scg meeting

00:50:48 meeting was there a time when there was a discussion on the morning the 14th of june

00:50:51 june can you recall

00:50:56 the only time i can recall um

00:51:02 was further on in the day well in the morning

00:51:06 morning when it became apparent that we needed rest center managers from h f that was the first time it was brought up but then in our rest center plan that's one of

00:51:19 in our rest center plan that's one of our

00:51:19 our um plans anyway because we don't have any rest center managers trained and we relied on h f anyway it was kind of like a mutual agreement that

00:51:31 of like a mutual agreement that if we really needed them we could rely on them there was no ritual form and it was just an agreement between two emergency planning teams

00:51:47 if we could turn to your second statement please which is obk triple zero five eight one seven zero and paragraph 14.9

00:51:58 and paragraph 14.9 this hopefully might assist your recollection there's a lot going on that morning paragraph 14.9 thank you

00:52:10 so this meeting which i didn't agree with was held in the back so nicholas chaired meeting held in the back where you've got phones going off everywhere

00:52:22 going off everywhere he's told us not to answer the phones luckily it was a very short meeting i think the idea of the meeting is before the 11 o'clock gold meeting okay so that's the time scale of it we'll just

00:52:34 that's the time scale of it we'll just pause there for seconds let's read this out so everybody can have the opportunity so i attended a meeting in the back chaired by nicholas holgate i believe this is in the morning the 14th of june

00:52:43 of june nicholas holget mentioned he had received a phone call from the ceo at student council who dealt with the lac canal fire with the author assistants i recall that nicholas holgate told persons at the meeting that or bkc was

00:52:55 persons at the meeting that or bkc was coping and outside help was not required at that time so we

00:53:03 so we that just assists so we have the context and you were mentioning that there was this meeting in the back the phones weren't being answered you weren't happy about the environment was it a long

00:53:14 about the environment was it a long discussion no it was very quick i think the

00:53:17 the i think what nicholas was trying to do was more rally the troops than anything else

00:53:22 else which is the only reason why i can see why he would hold it in the back because there was no other meetings held in the bed because you don't have the bec's not a meeting room that's that's where we coordinate things

00:53:33 that's that's where we coordinate things that's where we manage it that's not where you have meetings there are meeting rooms all around it so i think it was more just like a rallying call that he got all the officers at that time that was working in the back just

00:53:45 time that was working in the back just sit down

00:53:47 sit down i think it was only more that it wasn't more than like five ten minutes it was a very short meeting um but he did mention that he'd had this phone call but

00:53:57 but he thinks we're fine and then he got up and went out okay so

00:54:02 so as you said he told persons the meeting that or bkc was coping yes and outside help was not required at that time yes was there anything else said that you consider relevant in relation to this nothing that jumps out okay

00:54:16 to this nothing that jumps out okay thank you let's move on now please to the 8 30 scg meeting yes you've been pulled in you described how you weren't sure that you were the right person to

00:54:27 sure that you were the right person to be there yes and there was four of you from

00:54:31 from from

00:54:32 from relatively senior positions are those with expertise in the contingency management field at that meeting if we could open up your project athena

00:54:43 if we could open up your project athena interview again please that's all bk triple zero two nine zero one nine

00:54:49 and if you could turn to page two

00:54:56 and it's it's it's the last line of page two obviously at that time the fire was still going you're saying what was asked of you okay but what they mainly wanted to know

00:55:08 okay but what they mainly wanted to know from us

00:55:09 from us was

00:55:10 was where our rest centers were and how many people we had at each of them

00:55:15 them so that was the request which has been made i'm pausing for a second that was a request which was being made yes they wanted to know where our rest centers were how many people were in them um yeah that's what they wanted to know and

00:55:27 yeah that's what they wanted to know and they it's the other callers on the sc yeah so that would be the chair of the scg that's what they asked us chaired by the mps yes at that stage yes and designs for building situational awareness yes and

00:55:39 building situational awareness yes and coordination between different yeah because at the time because the fire was still going on that was still the main of course

00:55:46 of course so they just wanted to get to know where everyone's going and this is what you say when they asked david just looked at me to answer them so all i could do was tell them look i've just walked in but this is what i

00:55:58 i've just walked in but this is what i know we've got rest centers at portobello rugby club rugby portobello club and saint clemens and we don't have anyone on the ground at the rest centers yet but we have two layla's at the scene

00:56:09 yet but we have two layla's at the scene i asked david that was right he just mumbled something and then you left the telecon at one point and went into the back we can pause there for a moment is that right is that a summary of the

00:56:20 is that right is that a summary of the position yes how confident were you at 8 30 i wasn't i'm just going to finish the sentence off

00:56:27 off may still be the same answer but how confident were you of rbk's understanding of what was happening on the ground at that stage um they they weren't confident they

00:56:38 um they they weren't confident they didn't know what was happening on the ground at that time how can you if you haven't got people there

00:56:46 and you say in your statement we don't need to turn to it that during this 08 30 meeting and it's alluded to in in what we've just read a moment ago that elaine chondri again yes entered

00:56:58 chondri again yes entered the room that you were in listening and participating in a telecon and said that she needed urgent assistance in the back more than once is that correct yes that's correct

00:57:09 that's correct and did elaine's channel say why she needed urgent assistance in the back well

00:57:15 well um as i've said here i'd have i did leave various times and then come back in

00:57:21 in and it was requests to um

00:57:25 um we need

00:57:27 we need i think one of the requests was getting the electoral role so we could find out who was there who actually so we could get a picture of who was missing

00:57:36 missing that was i think that was one of the requests

00:57:39 requests another one was about staff when do we put the staff in which rest centers do we put the staff into

00:57:50 another one was food and shelter how do we get food to the rest centers so it was the logistics of running a rest centre that's what the council

00:58:02 rest centre that's what the council should have been doing that morning was

00:58:05 was running those rest centres and making sure everyone and everything is in the right place and they those were the requests that were coming in um and because at that time i think it

00:58:16 um and because at that time i think it was still elaine um and green might have joined her who was another trained back officer at that point but it was just the two of them and because we were all in this

00:58:27 them and because we were all in this scg meeting there was no one in the back to do that quick fire right this is who you need to call this is who because although both beck and ann were probably two of the most experienced and well

00:58:40 two of the most experienced and well trained officers and those i had retained from my olympic day so they've had a lot of lot of experience they still don't know everything that we know in our heads and so that's why i think

00:58:53 and so that's why i think i shouldn't have been pulled into that meeting

00:58:56 meeting if we could scroll back to the to page two please the second last paragraph and it's

00:59:04 and it's just

00:59:05 just really following on from what you said elaine's second sentence just kept coming in and saying she needed someone that back to help her because she didn't know what she was doing

00:59:16 she didn't know what she was doing but david was adamant that i had to stay in the meetings rather than go to hell assist elaine in the back is that correct yes yes so at one point i did just get up and leave

00:59:27 at one point i did just get up and leave i just ignored it because i thought that was more important because i think at the time it wasn't

00:59:32 wasn't um the local authority bit and

00:59:35 and so i thought it was in a convenient time to

00:59:39 to exit the meeting so what i needed to sort out and then come back in okay

00:59:45 okay so the time you're away does it flow from what you're saying that there's a leadership gap in the back

00:59:51 back yes

00:59:53 yes and generally was there an issue regarding a lack of those who were senior members there to lead on the 14th of june

01:00:05 stuart spent a lot of time in the back i was pulled from meeting to meeting from what i can remember especially in that morning

01:00:12 morning because i had the 8 30 scg and then tony pulled me up to the 11 o'clock gold meeting and then i think i had the following scg later in the afternoon as

01:00:23 following scg later in the afternoon as well

01:00:24 well um

01:00:25 um and i think stuart remained mostly in the back

01:00:28 the back but i know that he was also because he then got pulled into his silver meetings mass for television and the mass fatality meetings as well so when we're getting pulled this way in

01:00:39 when we're getting pulled this way in that way

01:00:40 that way there is no overall leadership in the back

01:00:44 so bear in mind the demands which are on you and your colleagues and

01:00:49 and the council silver mr priestley at that time was it a case that there just wasn't enough people to meet the demands which were on our bkc that morning yes

01:01:02 just want to move on now to the the end of that meeting i think you describe it in graphic terms in in the

01:01:12 in the project athena interview that it was a long meeting an hour and a half is that a fair summary

01:01:18 summary from what i remember it could have been shorter but it did it did seem to go on for a very very long time so much so there was at one point me and nicholas and tony were all looking at

01:01:29 nicholas and tony were all looking at each other going this needs to end because we were fully aware we've got

01:01:35 we've got a council to manage yes and it was

01:01:39 it was it was the longest scg meeting but i understand why it was so long because they like you said is to get this situation awareness and that situation awareness comes from all of the

01:01:50 awareness comes from all of the responding agencies so but it got to a point where it was like this needs to end i've not been seeking to be critical of the duration of meeting but the duration

01:02:01 the duration of meeting but the duration of the meeting helps us know what time you return yeah i think i think it roughly what it was definitely over an hour

01:02:08 hour and not two hours so an hour and a half would be

01:02:12 would be so half nine probably closer to ten o'clock yes return back to the back yes and how was the beck operating at that time already was there any change i walked in

01:02:23 walked in i had um

01:02:24 i had um laura and anne just say to me we've got staff ready to deploy can we deploy them and i just said yes and then they said which rest centers and at the time i knew saint clements

01:02:37 and at the time i knew saint clements and i knew the rugby trust so i just said have you got enough teams to send them to both so a full a housing team and an adult social care housing team and an adult social care and they got sent to those

01:02:48 social care and they got sent to those two rest centers okay so and that was a that was at 10 o'clock 10 o'clock you returned back

01:02:58 we have if we go to page three of your athena interview for your over overlap thank you

01:03:05 thank you and we see right and center how did you lead the back

01:03:10 back this is what you say well at that time we were playing catch up because the bet was not set up so it should have been

01:03:18 and then you go on i think you say there

01:03:23 that you

01:03:28 spoke with laura that's laura johnson is that correct yes and ann stewart and there was an uncertainty i'm summarizing there was an uncertainty in the back regarding which rest center had

01:03:40 the back regarding which rest center had the most people yes correct yes and in terms of resourcing was it you who made that decision to send yes

01:03:51 send yes yeah

01:03:52 yeah how confident are you in your recollection that you deployed staff at 10 o'clock very confident was it the case that nicholas holgates came into the room and

01:04:03 came into the room and set out a strategic no approach and deployed staff no no they were still um so following the scg meeting the other three stayed in the room they didn't even leave the room

01:04:15 they didn't even leave the room i was the one that got up went back into the back so um

01:04:22 the next time i see nicholas holgate is when he comes in and gets everyone to sit down

01:04:31 okay

01:04:37 and in relation to the timing of staff we touched upon already 10 o'clock was when

01:04:42 when staff were deployed at the town hall to the locality

01:04:48 locality and do you think that was the appropriate time to deploy the staff no

01:04:54 no when do you think staff should have been sent

01:04:56 sent to the locality to give support early hours of the morning

01:05:04 in terms of responsibility whose in terms of job role is it to deploy staff and answer a situation to the scene

01:05:13 scene because it's a rest center it falls mainly on the contingency planning unit that's what we're there for one of the council's main role we're not a blue light although we're a category one we're not a blue light service

01:05:26 one we're not a blue light service what what we're there to do is to look after the people that's our main aim is the people and making sure the people are okay

01:05:35 are okay then following that then we do all the other things surrounding like the borough itself but

01:05:42 but so

01:05:43 so in an emergency situation it should have been that beck that was managing the deployment of staff

01:05:51 staff yes you could probably throw out oh no it should have been the senior management of housing it should have been the senior management of adult social care not in that very start of their response that various the reason why there's a

01:06:02 that various the reason why there's a contingency planning team is not just to plan

01:06:06 plan and

01:06:07 and to make sure all the documentation's in place make sure we look good on paper that's not just our role our role is also

01:06:16 also when

01:06:17 when things like this happen we then start that response then the other services come in and then you work more of the collective body but to start with

01:06:28 but to start with we're the ones that should have taken responsibility for it and in terms of those processes the process is the contingency management plan

01:06:37 plan and council silver would be the person then is it right on your account that should have deployed your staff yes beck logs we've touched upon it already i just want to deal with a few things in

01:06:48 i just want to deal with a few things in relation to that we know that david curry left the beck to go home after working and at 10 40 that morning were you aware that he'd started an

01:07:00 were you aware that he'd started an emergency event log sheet no

01:07:03 no did he

01:07:06 did he no

01:07:07 no um

01:07:08 um we know that you commenced a backlog by asking requesting lorna platt to do so at one o'clock and that one on your account had not been created beforehand

01:07:21 account had not been created beforehand is that correct yes that's correct i think he's i think formally you say in your second statement that it started at 13 18 yes

01:07:28 13 18 yes i think check-in records yes

01:07:35 and can you say why there was a delay in setting up the log until 13-18 on the 14th of june i asked initially but because we

01:07:46 i asked initially but because we couldn't get into the computers that's why one wasn't set up and then like i said because i was pulled from meeting to meeting i think i tasked anne with getting it

01:07:57 i think i tasked anne with getting it into getting all the computers up and running and by the time i was kind of back in the back it was about one o'clock or the computer was working lorna was

01:08:08 or the computer was working lorna was there and i just said we need to start a log

01:08:11 log um i didn't want to go back and retrospectively fill it in because because of the scale of the incident i don't think that would have been right for us to which is why it starts at one because on

01:08:25 which is why it starts at one because on you you have got the ability to retrospect and do the log so you can because you've got the ability to change times so you can put in a log although you might put it in at 18

01:08:37 although you might put it in at 18 minutes past one you can change it to make it to for it to say half past 10 but i didn't want to retrospectively do that because i wanted a true reflection of

01:08:48 of this is when we started the log i was aware that stuart not sure no i wasn't even aware that david kept one

01:08:55 one i i presumed david had kept one and i did ask for it after the incident after those first three days but i never actually saw it until

01:09:06 but i never actually saw it until this process started so a log we've heard a lot about them it creates an older trail as well but is it also a way where

01:09:16 tasks are kept track of as as one goes along and it's populated and operated that way our one is yes some logs you can just have i did this i did this i did this i did this but because um the

01:09:27 did this i did this but because um the way the

01:09:29 way the the system that we used which is i think it was it was based on sharepoint looked slightly different but you could put open closed and you could say action and what the

01:09:40 and you could say action and what the outcome was and our log did have the ability to do that and would you consider it an important tool when there's multiple people working in an environment where there's new tasks coming in all the time absolutely

01:09:54 coming in all the time absolutely once we have this document open if we could please go to page four and just explore something you said in relation to the log and we see the questions some documents

01:10:05 and we see the questions some documents which i've seen are log books which are created by dave curry who started a log this is what you say i instructed lauren to plat to start a log about 2pm i'd don't know 14 or 15 i

01:10:16 log about 2pm i'd don't know 14 or 15 i can't remember it was soon as the government said we need a public inquiry into the fire paul's in there for a moment you're doing your best this is in 2018

01:10:27 you're doing your best this is in 2018 yes we know that you started a log on the 14th of june and we know that a public inquiry was announced on the 15th yes yes so that that's

01:10:36 that's you you recognize the the difficulty with henry there but i just want to explore a little bit more the passage that you say that follows that was when the red light started flashing for me and i knew that

01:10:48 started flashing for me and i knew that we needed to log everything we did i told tony we were in trouble because we didn't have a log and we hadn't reacted quickly enough do you recall when you had that discussion yep with tony yeah like i

01:11:00 discussion yep with tony yeah like i said it was when the um public inquiry wasn't out so like i said my dates were off a bit there i apologize for that um

01:11:09 um but yeah as soon as the public inquiry got

01:11:12 got um

01:11:13 um announced

01:11:15 announced um

01:11:17 um i mentioned it to tony straight away i said and i think what i'm applying there is the fact that we didn't start the log until one o'clock yes um not that old now the inquiry started now we

01:11:28 that old now the inquiry started now we have to start log it was our log didn't start when the incident started so those first actions which are

01:11:37 which are in my view probably one of the most critical ones can't really be scrutinized because there's no as you said audit trail so and that's um what i said to him

01:11:50 so and that's um what i said to him that's what i was alluding to when i think i said that i apologize for a bit mixed up with dates and times and and what was tony redbat's red pat's response to you when you spoke on the

01:12:02 response to you when you spoke on the 15th of june or thereafter when you sort of said you know we're in trouble because we haven't done anything as we should have done it within the context that you described it what was his what was his reaction he said they

01:12:14 what was his reaction he said they wouldn't look into us they're just looking to the core of the fire

01:12:20 okay

01:12:24 mr chairman that may be a suitable moment a natural break is it suitable for you it's suitable for me right well um mr platinum we have a break during each session and this looks like a good time to take the afternoon break so

01:12:35 time to take the afternoon break so we'll stop there we'll resume please at huffles three and while you're out of the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence okay thank you thank you very much

01:12:51 thank you mr keating help us read please

01:29:37 [Music] you ask his background to come back in please

01:29:55 all right mrs blackburn ready to carry on thank you yes we're skating thank you

01:30:02 it's blackburn we're going to turn to some more meetings and you mentioned in your statement that you attended both of the rbkc gold meetings that day which took place at 11 o'clock and 3 o'clock

01:30:13 took place at 11 o'clock and 3 o'clock is that correct um i think i got a bit confused i think it was the two gold scg meetings i attended i definitely attended the first um 11 o'clock gold meeting

01:30:25 um 11 o'clock gold meeting but

01:30:26 but i know i'm not minuted so i may not have attended that three o'clock one it was just so many meetings that day that i think when going back through i may have got the two gold meetings mixed up we're definitely not in the in the

01:30:38 definitely not in the in the minutes as an attendee yeah for the three o'clock one but you were asked in a

01:30:43 a subsequent question by the inquiry in relation to that believed you were but yeah at the time i did and then i realized i think i was talking about the other scg me yeah okay well let's focus on the 11

01:30:55 yeah okay well let's focus on the 11 o'clock meeting if if we may were you keen to attend that gold meeting at 11 o'clock

01:31:03 o'clock i don't think i was keen because i would have preferred to stay in the back but

01:31:09 but if i didn't go there wouldn't have been anyone else from mercy planning going so it needed some sort of representation there

01:31:17 there stuart priestley was council silver so he remained he remained in the back and i came up with tony redpath and and

01:31:25 and and in terms of the meeting the 11 o'clock meeting and any other or bkc gold meetings which took place under 14 at 15 how would you describe the

01:31:34 the utility of those meetings what are useful

01:31:38 useful i think they were useful in the terms of a council staff were able to understand what was going on in particular the 11 o'clock one was

01:31:49 particular the 11 o'clock one was helpful because i had no idea about the westway centre and it wasn't until that 11 o'clock meeting where sue harris told me that the westway center is now starting to be

01:32:00 westway center is now starting to be ramped up that i found out about it was it possible that you heard about that before the meeting or is it your recollection my recollection is that because

01:32:10 because um if you because when i say which rest centers are open that's when sue harris said oh also the west way centers now also started to be opened okay well let's let's look at

01:32:21 opened okay well let's let's look at those minutes if we may it's or bk triple zero one three two seven one and we'll see those open up and we can go to the bottom of page one

01:32:34 that's the part there where we see two rest centers have been set up rugby portobello trust in a clement james center just as you described it the red cross are at obt managers were

01:32:45 the red cross are at obt managers were in place at all the centers and then it's this additional entry a further rest enter overleaf thank you it's been set up at the west west sports center the british red cross are on

01:32:57 center the british red cross are on standby to go in so that update actually came from sue harris although it's under my name

01:33:03 my name i think they probably put it under my name because it all comes under the same sort of emergency plan in part of it but that was the first the first time i knew about it was in that meeting and it was

01:33:15 about it was in that meeting and it was sue harris that told me that the westway centre was now being used and would you have expected to know bear in mind your pivotal position in the back that there

01:33:26 pivotal position in the back that there was another rest center operating by 11 o'clock i should have done but i hadn't really spent any time in the back up until that point because i'd always been from meeting to meetings so

01:33:37 so this is what i'm saying in terms of not having me in the back i wasn't able to get this overview so

01:33:44 so that probably had gone through the back at some point that morning i just hadn't seen it okay and we go down to the next bullet point no idea on the number of people in the rest centers but they are very busy

01:33:57 rest centers but they are very busy that correct yes and what was the difficulty in getting accurate information of the numbers of people at the various rest centers so at the time going into that meeting bearing in mind i only deployed the staff at 10

01:34:10 in mind i only deployed the staff at 10 o'clock

01:34:11 o'clock i hadn't had any report of what's it like on the ground because

01:34:17 because from 10 o'clock from then getting there then me being pulled up to this meeting i had no chance to liaise with anyone that's actually on the ground of the team that had been deployed

01:34:29 team that had been deployed and in terms of process of getting information from the ground what what would you have anticipated would have taken place or did take place in the end we ended up getting the

01:34:40 in the end we ended up getting the numbers from the teams that we sent out what should have happened is like as i mentioned it earlier about the use of a layla you could have we had layla's we

01:34:51 layla you could have we had layla's we and i think we had um

01:34:54 um des on the ground at some point i can't remember whether this early or not going round and finding out numbers because unless you've got people on the ground that you can talk to there is no way that you can

01:35:07 can talk to there is no way that you can find out

01:35:08 find out what's in the rest centers we've heard evidence that layla was deployed about two o'clock yes so at this point the only people that would have been in the rest sensors are

01:35:19 would have been in the rest sensors are the two other teams that i deployed at 10 o'clock and in terms of registration of people who attend a rest center which would be

01:35:29 would be set up and managed and operated by or bkc or at least taken over by obkc what would what was the process in terms of adult social care and

01:35:40 in terms of adult social care and housing i don't know because i think they had their own process the british red cross have also got their own process as a borough i don't think we had a process in terms of in terms of the actual emergency

01:35:51 of in terms of the actual emergency planning side of it other boroughs that have already documentation already printed out already ready to go in a box you you pick up you take down to the rest center

01:36:02 pick up you take down to the rest center and you start filling it out

01:36:05 from my time at rbkc i think i only did one live breath center exercise and that was with hammersmith and fulham so the documentation that we used was theirs it

01:36:17 documentation that we used was theirs it wasn't ours so i may be wrong we may have had documentation i was just not aware of it but that's how normally a rest center works you come in at the

01:36:28 rest center works you come in at the door you meet someone they take your name then you sit down and then someone goes over to you and then they have that person-to-person conversation and as the specialist in this three-person team

01:36:39 specialist in this three-person team would you expect to know the process well know the process yes but i don't think we had our own process because we because we were so heavily reliant on british red cross because we

01:36:51 reliant on british red cross because we one thing we did not have was a rest center team yes we had no one start we had no one trained no one staffed to go into a rest center so in terms of our rest center exercises

01:37:03 so in terms of our rest center exercises it was very much reliant on british red cross british red cross did all the documentation for us that was one of that was part of their memorandum understanding that the british red cross

01:37:14 understanding that the british red cross does all of that because we had no because we didn't have a team we didn't have the documentation we didn't understand have any of that

01:37:25 didn't understand have any of that does that make sense yeah it does i just want to

01:37:28 want to show you a document and the answer may be

01:37:31 be clear from what you've just told us but it's obk triple zero five eight zero eight three please this is

01:37:41 this is an assistant center manual

01:37:45 manual it's annex 14 to the cmp the contingency management plan

01:37:51 plan august 2014 just looking at the first page do you recognize this document yes and we see in the top left people wearing high-vis jackets

01:38:03 wearing high-vis jackets perhaps that's a way where information is being gathered as a yeah illustration yeah in a rest center you've got the initial um registration yes because what you don't

01:38:14 registration yes because what you don't do is as soon as someone comes into a rest center you don't go right tell me your name tell me what you're here tell me this tell me that tell me that you don't spend that first the idea is you get them in get

01:38:27 first the idea is you get them in get them sat down get them with a cup of tea and then you go and talk to them so it's not you're not bombarding them as soon as they walk through the door the impression of the evidence so far is

01:38:39 the impression of the evidence so far is that there was a system where there was like a gatekeeper outside where a registration would take place and only if somebody perhaps

01:38:50 perhaps passed that would allowed into the west way yeah i think like following what i read on like reports of news and i think that's how it ended up being but that's not how a

01:39:02 it ended up being but that's not how a rest center should be run okay let's go to page 13 please i may have asked forgive me if i'm repeating myself are you familiar with this document yes yes

01:39:13 this document yes yes and we see under 3.6 registration

01:39:18 it says once initial reception's taken place arrives will be directed to the area designated registration as you described it and how registration is central to operation of a rest center for the

01:39:29 operation of a rest center for the reasons why logistical planning for further welfare needs such as overnight accommodation identifi identification of those specific or urgent needs

01:39:45 and there's a reference in this document about forms being given to to be taken to the location uh registration form to be completed

01:39:57 registration form to be completed um

01:39:59 um probably follows from what you said are you aware whether there was any forms provided to british red cross or was on the basis that they were going to do that bear in mind your agreement with them i was always under the impression that it was the

01:40:10 under the impression that it was the british red cross bearing this document was 2014 yes um

01:40:17 so it's probably quite old um

01:40:22 um yeah i was always under the impression that it was the british red cross that did all the documentation never have i seen any council logo council branded

01:40:33 council branded documentation in terms of rest center perhaps we could just go to page 15 and there's a visual demonstration off hn f1

01:40:45 that's the one i've seen that was the live that was the one we used when we did that live exercise but like i said it was in conjunction with h and if and h f have their own rest center

01:40:57 if and h f have their own rest center they don't rely on the british red cross like they've got their welfare officers and their bronze officers they've also got of the team also on standby so that's why they they're very

01:41:08 so that's why they they're very different because this document look does look very very similar to the h f version of this um

01:41:14 um so

01:41:16 so this is where the two boroughs are slightly different because we don't have our own team yeah we've got hnf's documentation but i've never seen like an rbkz version of this i

01:41:27 like an rbkz version of this i understand in terms of the evidence you mentioned that you've been following the evidence and you may recall yesterday evidence in relation to british red cross and their

01:41:41 british red cross and their experience of storing

01:41:44 storing completing registration forms at the scene in triplicates and providing copies to all bkc at the west way and the discovery that some of those

01:41:56 and the discovery that some of those forms which were provided that will be kc at the westway were we're left unattended in a box do you recall that evidence yes i've done in a short web as you mentioned you've covered it we've read out the statement yesterday and today in

01:42:08 out the statement yesterday and today in relation to that were you aware of any concerns being raised at the back to the back from british red cross on the 14th or 15th or 16th of june no

01:42:20 16th of june no no nothing came across the west way once

01:42:25 once the west way was properly established it was

01:42:29 it was more taken kind of away from the back a little bit because it was managed by i think um sue harris managed it partly

01:42:41 i think um sue harris managed it partly we did the rotor for the west way we made sure there was a senior manager in there

01:42:46 there but in terms of the actual um

01:42:50 um like minute by minute manager of it i don't recall seeing that much coming through the back on

01:42:58 on especially on the 14th and even on the 15th or 16th okay i'm going to move on to um the 1400 to 2 o'clock scg strategic coordination group

01:43:09 o'clock scg strategic coordination group meeting

01:43:10 meeting and you attended that one yes with tony redpath and nicholas holgates perhaps we could open paragraph 24 of your statement or bk triple zero three

01:43:21 your statement or bk triple zero three five three six four

01:43:27 paragraph 24

01:43:32 the second sentence after the next seg meeting tony redbath pat and nicholas holgate discussed when controlled the major incident would be handed over to the borough the feeling

01:43:44 handed over to the borough the feeling was clear the borough was not ready to take control they postponed the decision so just explore it at the moment perhaps you don't need to look at the scg minutes but

01:43:56 minutes but is it right that there was discussion at the scg that's that it was coming to the time where obkc would take over the lead of the recovery coordination group

01:44:09 recovery coordination group yes um

01:44:11 yes um so it was

01:44:13 so it was i think the fire may just have been put out or

01:44:18 or it was getting to that point and

01:44:22 and so once the emergency services done their bit then it falls to the council the local authority that's in charge of the incident to then take the lead in terms of recovery and that was discussed

01:44:35 terms of recovery and that was discussed and this point here we've got emergency response emphasizing the nerve response and then it moves to recovery yes and recovery would be the local authority's responsibility

01:44:46 local authority's responsibility and there would be a recovery coordination group in due course yes which they would lead yes this is what we're dealing with yes and in relation to that

01:44:56 to that the feeling was clear that the borough was not ready to take control was that

01:45:01 was that an internal discussion amongst tony redbath and nicholas holgate yes they said that the emergency services are still on site that

01:45:11 that is not recovery phase yet we're still in the response phase that's that was their decision and that was that

01:45:22 if we could move on

01:45:25 move on in terms of towards the end of the day you've already commented upon how you thought or bkc were performing that days and we know that you worked late

01:45:36 and we know that you worked late that

01:45:37 that night

01:45:38 night and

01:45:40 and you worked to eleven eleven thirty yes having left the house around um quarter to six yes and traveled the whole way back yes and

01:45:51 and traveled the whole way back yes and got up early so that you were back in a town hall by about 6 30 the next day yes on the 15th of june yes whilst you were away for that short period of time and david curry had been choosy

01:46:03 and david curry had been choosy overnight isn't that correct yes but how would you describe the beck on your return on the 15th of june it looked exactly the same as when i left

01:46:14 looked exactly the same as when i left it at 11 o'clock the previous evening and what was your expectation um on the 15th of june of how it should be well i would have expected as it is a

01:46:25 be well i would have expected as it is a quieter time it's not um there was still going to be things going on and i did ask david to finish doing the um rest center rotor as

01:46:36 finish doing the um rest center rotor as well

01:46:37 well um

01:46:39 um but i would have expected um maybe the log to be prettied up go through actions have a strategy for the day so we walk in we know what's outstanding

01:46:52 so we walk in we know what's outstanding what's not outstanding what direction we need to take and

01:46:57 and we know that we still had people that needed temporary accommodation it would have been useful if they could somehow look through the emails and see if there was any emails that had been missed there was a lot of emails going

01:47:09 missed there was a lot of emails going into that beck email and like i said with the british red cross they may have emailed the bec i may have missed it

01:47:17 missed it so that's kind of what i was expecting i was also expecting people to have the new beck rotor we knew who was coming in we'd already allocated the staff

01:47:28 staff but they should have been given roles they should have had clear roles so when the next member came in okay you're the information officer for the day you'll be sitting here this is your phone this is and then okay you're the logist for

01:47:41 is and then okay you're the logist for the day

01:47:42 the day that's what i was expecting so again a lot in there but in essence it was

01:47:48 it was um

01:47:50 um no allocation of roles i think is something you mentioned in your statement in a moment ago issues regarding the rota not being done

01:48:00 a realization that there was emails which had been missed yes and that being something of concern yes because

01:48:10 because anything could have been in those emails so you mentioned on the 14th of june that

01:48:15 that you felt that because a beck was set up late that you're always behind and chasing to catch up yes did you think by the morning the 15th of june that the

01:48:26 the morning the 15th of june that the beck and all bkc were on track back on track no

01:48:34 and during the the day of the 15th of june did you feel that there was sufficient senior or bk staff around in the back to support you

01:48:47 the back to support you i don't remember seeing tony or stuart in there for longer than maybe 10 minutes at a time and the reason why they weren't in there it doesn't follow that they were at other meetings or

01:48:59 other meetings or i think they were at a meeting because i think mark sawyer came in and i think another person might have come in and

01:49:06 and they just went off to meetings came back went off to meetings without actually

01:49:13 actually giving us

01:49:14 giving us anything

01:49:16 anything we say giving us anything what do you mean by that like an update or where we are

01:49:21 are what our focus is what our strategic focus is what our tactical focus is that wasn't given to us it was no

01:49:31 no there was a meeting going on over there with

01:49:34 with maybe i think um

01:49:37 um even tony andrews came in from westminster maybe i might got that one wrong um but there was so many people that just come in just for a meeting and then

01:49:47 then left again and she described the lack of um

01:49:52 um direction yes there from from more senior people you were not counseled silvers so you were not the tactical um

01:50:03 um was there

01:50:04 was there was the absence of the council silver and an issue that have an impact on the performance of the beck on the 15th of june

01:50:14 june i think it did because we didn't really know where our focus was because our focus at that time still should have been probably finding accommodation for those

01:50:27 probably finding accommodation for those that still needed it and i know that laura's team did an amazing job trying to do that but at any one time if someone came in to me and said how many people still are

01:50:39 to me and said how many people still are without accommodation there was no way that i would be able to give them

01:50:44 give them an answer

01:50:45 an answer because i didn't have that information that information was being fed to stuart

01:50:51 stuart and tony but wasn't being fed back down and i think that's where the beck

01:50:58 the beck lost its role whereas

01:51:01 whereas if we had council silva at least either adjacent to the back like

01:51:07 like fair enough the bet can be quite noisy it can be

01:51:10 it can be quite problematic even definitely if you're on phone calls all the time yes but there were not enough empty offices near the back because the holland room was in a whole suite of offices there

01:51:21 was in a whole suite of offices there were enough where you could have positioned yourself where you're still in touch with the back

01:51:28 back but so you're able to feed information into the back but not physically always be there but know that if i needed them i know where they were

01:51:38 they were it's going to move on to staffing and issues in relation to sourcing staff that was one of your principal tasks you set out and your first witness statement on the 15th of june was trying to source

01:51:51 on the 15th of june was trying to source staff from neighboring boroughs

01:51:55 is it fair to say that your view or bkc didn't have sufficient staff themselves to to man

01:52:02 to man the back

01:52:03 the back or indeed the rest centers we we definitely didn't have staff to man rest centers we did have the housing and um adult social care officers those we did

01:52:14 adult social care officers those we did have but what we didn't have was what the role the british red cross does that was where we lacked in staffing of a rest centre in terms of the beck

01:52:26 in terms of the beck um

01:52:27 um i think we exhausted our staff because we had such a small pool to pull in from anyway

01:52:35 anyway i think we exhausted it by the night of the 15th which is why i think louise was called in to help with the overnight and it wasn't until louise came in

01:52:47 until louise came in that

01:52:48 that the beck

01:52:49 the beck started doing what probably a beck should

01:52:54 so these staff issues were building during the 15th of june i think you used a phrase

01:52:59 a phrase in your project athena interview that your best staff were dead on their feet by then yes because some like me had worked consecutive day shifts and long hours as well

01:53:13 day shifts and long hours as well and

01:53:15 and david curry was not there that during the day on the 15th of june you were you were having contact with tony redbath at times and nicholas holgate and did you give was there any discussions with them

01:53:26 give was there any discussions with them regarding

01:53:28 regarding perhaps seeking assistance from other local boroughs or activating the london local authority gold there was um after i think it was the 11 o'clock scg meeting on the 15th yes um

01:53:41 o'clock scg meeting on the 15th yes um again the recovery was because we're now a day like day one from the fire so it should be the local authority starting to take control

01:53:52 starting to take control the main issues that were left are the people are the response to the people so we were the ones that were responsible for them and we were the ones that had the ability to be able to talk that

01:54:04 the ability to be able to talk that so that should have been when we had taken control we were in no position to take control not through lack of experience i think our housing team and adult social care

01:54:16 our housing team and adult social care team

01:54:18 team they were slowly running out of staff and slowly running out of energy i think but they kept going but i think where we really really lacked

01:54:27 lacked is probably lack of strategic overview

01:54:33 overview mainly from the director that i worked in the corporate services directorate i think that's where we lacked both experience skills and

01:54:44 skills and i think overview of how serious it still is even i think day two it still wasn't recognised which is why i said

01:54:53 i said we're not going to cope also the beck staff would never have kept going paul's there again a lot in there and i want to ensure i understand and your evidence

01:55:08 so your view was in terms you mentioned moving to um sort of recovery yes where the low authority would take take charge and it was already the next

01:55:19 take charge and it was already the next day

01:55:20 day in general terms from your experience in that field would you expect by the second day that it moved from response to recovery yes because all the all the impacts

01:55:32 yes because all the all the impacts um were recovery so the back one of the beck's main thing was um the waist clearance and trying to clear the site and again that's a recovery phase okay

01:55:43 recovery phase okay let's let's look at paragraph 37 of your statements which we have open but if you could scroll down please it's on page eight

01:55:56 during the day i spoke to tony redpath and nicholas holgate about when responsibility for managing the incident would return to the borough i suggest that they seek assistance from other london boroughs invoking london gold

01:56:10 london boroughs invoking london gold this is where you say nicholas told me that he received an email from the chief executive

01:56:15 executive i had the impression that senior management at the borough were reluctant to seek mutual aid despite the facts i had advised nicholas holgate and tony redpath to activate london gold after

01:56:26 redpath to activate london gold after the gold meeting they had said they wanted to speak to david when he returned so two things firstly you were clear on your advice that they should by 11 o'clock

01:56:38 11 o'clock activate london gold the gold resolution and the reason why we just weren't coping or able to cope going forward no

01:56:49 or able to cope going forward no and you you set out your impression that they were reluctant to seek mutual aid slash or activate the london gold resolution

01:57:00 resolution and

01:57:01 and why did you inform that impression

01:57:07 or was there anything said which made you form that impression well what was said to me the day before when with that nick i've

01:57:13 nick i've um referred to an email that time where whereas again you've got another chief exec offering support and nicholas has turned it down

01:57:25 and nicholas has turned it down also they both said no we can manage that was it and i don't think either of them saw

01:57:36 saw maybe what we saw on the ground or just choose not to see it that we weren't coping we didn't have staff numbers

01:57:47 staff numbers like i said i've been in that back for two days and i wouldn't have been able to give you a clear picture of what was happening on the ground and that shouldn't have been the case i

01:57:58 and that shouldn't have been the case i should have been able to roll off what's going on where is where who's where who needs help who doesn't need help who's got help and i couldn't have done that

01:58:09 and i couldn't have done that because

01:58:12 because um

01:58:13 um i think

01:58:15 i think and i've mentioned it before i think it was that failing in those first few hours that caused it and with an incident such of this size if you lose it at the start it's very

01:58:26 if you lose it at the start it's very difficult to get back and i think it's my opinion and i think that might be why they were so reluctant to get help because as soon as you open your doors

01:58:37 doors you also as well as accepting help you're accepting scrutiny as well and i don't think that was something that they wanted okay let's pause there for a second because i'm going to give you an opportunity just to to assist us with one other aspect if we

01:58:49 assist us with one other aspect if we could have a look at obk triple zero two nine zero one nine please

01:58:56 page five this is your should be your athena interview

01:59:02 interview second last paragraph

01:59:07 i was sorting out the staffing in the rest centers is the paragraph we're looking at you mentioned mark sawyer we've heard about already and it's the next sentence on the 15th of june i

01:59:18 next sentence on the 15th of june i think after the scg meeting someone asked do we need to ask for help from elsewhere and everyone said no we're fine nicholas holgate and tony redhat said that

01:59:29 that after that meeting finished i asked them about pressing the button and handing over to london but they said no we don't think we're there yet

01:59:39 there yet does that assist your recollection yes yeah and is that correct yeah they thought they were coping they thought they could cope

01:59:50 and in terms of mark sawyer he was presence that day on the 15th of june coming down to provide advice and assistance we'll hear from him in due course

02:00:01 course um

02:00:02 um was he somebody who was present at the time of this conversation

02:00:08 [Music]

02:00:20 once we have this open perhaps we could look at are we i'm just gonna there's a reference to mark sawyer

02:00:34 in fact it's just above what we've been looking at and mark sawyer from l ort do you mean london resilience yes yeah a lot of resilience team i think i put down us

02:00:45 think i put down us and came in to help nicholas holgate manage things i don't know what his role actually was because he didn't help me at all he was there to advise nicholas but didn't do so in the right way

02:00:56 but didn't do so in the right way we've got that in front of us perhaps you could try and clarify that or assist us i think the reason why i've put that is because i would have thought he would have come in and gone

02:01:07 have come in and gone you're not coping you need help um and then obviously having a meeting after

02:01:15 after mark had clearly had a meeting with nicholas

02:01:18 nicholas for then nicholas and tony to say no we are coping fine that's that's where that's come from i would have thought he would have come in looked around i think i know in evidence

02:01:30 looked around i think i know in evidence yesterday it was noticed that he did say that the bec was failing and if the beck was failing why didn't he push

02:01:38 he push further on us seeking more help well we can explore that in due course but you've expressed your opinion there i'm going to move on to um

02:01:49 um in terms of the london gold resolution we know that was formally activated on the afternoon of the 16th of june and with a request to activate made on the after afternoon evening of the 15th

02:02:02 the after afternoon evening of the 15th of june yeah i didn't know that and but what you do say in your statements and i'm not going to refer you to it but you did say this the quality of the response changed markedly

02:02:13 quality of the response changed markedly is that correct um once we got taken over and moved to westminster so it wasn't on the 15th it was

02:02:20 it was after once we had moved the back moved all operations was completely um operating out of westminster council that's when it changed and did it take was it

02:02:32 and did it take was it immediate the the changed improvement from on the afternoon of the 16th of june or to take a a period of time for the improvement well i wasn't there on the 17th which

02:02:43 well i wasn't there on the 17th which was the saturday because i got told to take a day off so i didn't go back in until the afternoon of the sunday um

02:02:52 um and that was when ever

02:02:56 ever everything had changed all the mini groups had been set up they'd all have their own little rooms and meeting rooms things were being coordinated you had a central hub

02:03:08 you had a central hub so that's the big change you hadn't just had one person over there in this council office in rbkc doing this this person doing this and then maybe not talking everything was centralized and

02:03:19 talking everything was centralized and that's what made the difference so you afraid to use big change that was something which is evidenced to you by the sunday well also staffing levels so as soon as you

02:03:30 as soon as you press that button so to speak you've got 33 london boroughs worth of beck staff so you can you can staff a bec for almost as long as you want when you've

02:03:42 almost as long as you want when you've got that amount of stuff when you've only got

02:03:45 only got five six seven or eight i can't remember how many we had you're never gonna you're only gonna last

02:03:52 last if you're going on 12 hour shifts you're only going to last three days at most so in terms of scalability massive difference massive difference okay going to move on to the final part which is

02:04:04 which is um

02:04:05 um assessment of the adequacy of the response which you've touched upon actually throughout your evidence and perhaps we could refer to your first statement please obk zero 35364 paragraph 52 please

02:04:26 and it's the heading which is in your

02:04:31 statement and you say under assessment adequacy of the response so i'm left with a sense that the borough did not react quickly enough

02:04:39 enough perhaps at hindsight the magnitude of the incident was not grasped at the outset

02:04:43 outset as soon as david curry received a call he should have alerted all back officers and ensured that we were immediately called into kensington town hall i do not understand why i was only cold at 0 5 20 not

02:04:56 why i was only cold at 0 5 20 not earlier by day break we should have set up rest centers which were staffed by bec officers at that point to specialist teams housing and adult social care could have been deployed

02:05:09 could have been deployed power 53

02:05:11 power 53 while the cpu that's your unit contingency planning unit had created an emergency plan it had not been adequately tested we should have had regular simulations to iron out problems

02:05:23 problems you mentioned the problem with the key to the cupboard this was avoidable we could have done simple things like starting

02:05:30 starting like started or starting a log of events remotely this would have meant that as soon as the computers were up and running the bec could get to work those other more discrete matters you mention but in

02:05:43 more discrete matters you mention but in relation to those main matters do you still stand by those absolutely yes and is there any other matter you wanted to add in relation to the adequacy of the response

02:05:54 i just think it is

02:05:58 it is the fact that we didn't deal with it early enough because and i i heard dave what david said like if you call people in too early they get tired too quickly

02:06:10 tired too quickly but

02:06:11 but that i would agree with if it was a small scale incident this was huge this i don't think any london borough would be able to deal with this incident on

02:06:22 be able to deal with this incident on their own i've worked for a county council i don't even think the county council would have been able to deal with it on their own and that wasn't i don't think realized at the start

02:06:34 at the start so i

02:06:36 so i i think we lost that incident within the last in those first three hours by not having and i don't know that you asked david yesterday could the log have been set up

02:06:47 yesterday could the log have been set up remotely

02:06:48 remotely absolutely it could so he could have done that first then travelled into the back and then

02:06:57 and then you can

02:06:58 you can and then he could have called one person in that one person could have then made all the phone calls to other back officers to get those in and you could have had a bet up and rolling

02:07:09 up and rolling a lot quicker and a lot slicker than what it was so because because we didn't have that and we didn't have those people in the back and we didn't have those people on the ground

02:07:21 people on the ground there was no real indication of what was happening which is why i think when

02:07:27 when i know lfb sent in a lot of requests for electoral roles or lists of people there was no one in the vet to be able to find those because he hadn't called anyone in to be able to do that role

02:07:39 anyone in to be able to do that role so i think if

02:07:42 if he had called people in as soon as um

02:07:46 um he got the phone call and it blew my mind when he said that he didn't even turn on the television because one of the first things that you taught is you get your first information

02:07:57 taught is you get your first information from the news it's a 24-hour news you get your first information from the news and that kind of blew my mind a little bit

02:08:05 bit um

02:08:06 um that

02:08:08 that if that had been recognized and if those calls have been put in and if those people were put in place and they would have come in and i know in the opening statement it said that we have quite a few officers

02:08:19 said that we have quite a few officers that live outside the borough a lot of those back officers actually live within 30 minutes of the borough elaine oni um lives in ham smith we had another officer asha who actually

02:08:32 we had another officer asha who actually lived in kensington and lived just over the border in ham smith so there is a lot of officers that would have come in and could have come in quickly and could

02:08:43 and could have come in quickly and could have set up and the issue about the key obviously you don't want to go into it too much think if things had been tested properly we would have found out the key was

02:08:54 we would have found out the key was never there so and i think because that has that wasn't done and i don't know why it became such a shock to everyone within the council

02:09:05 shock to everyone within the council that we weren't coping people should have seen that it was written on the wall that we weren't going to be able to cope

02:09:11 cope and

02:09:12 and because we didn't do any of this and then the correct procedures that were written in a manual that david wrote himself he didn't even follow his own procedures weren't followed

02:09:23 weren't followed that's where it was that's where it failed and that's and once you lose an incident especially of this scale and especially so fast moving you're never going to get it back

02:09:34 going to get it back it took

02:09:35 it took literally london coming in and saying we're taking it away from rbkc for it to start getting managed properly mr blackburn i'm very grateful they're

02:09:46 mr blackburn i'm very grateful they're all the questions i have for you at this stage

02:09:49 stage and with mr chairman which we'll leave we could have perhaps a five-minute break to see if there's any further questions

02:09:56 questions probably no miss blackmon that we have a break at this point to consider further questions and possibly hear questions from people from outside the room so we'll break now we'll come back please at 20 past four okay and

02:10:08 back please at 20 past four okay and then we'll see at that point whether there are any more questions for you okay thank you all right thank you very much would you give the usher please

02:10:24 i'll say 25's full then if you need more time which i think unlikely you can let us know thank you all right thank you very much

02:19:40 would you ask this blackburn to come back in please

02:19:46 [Music]

02:19:52 wellness platform we'll we'll see if there's any more questions for you yes yes well again thank you so much for the time um upon consideration of all the matters i think we've covered everything we need to cover so there's no more questions right save ms blackburn just

02:20:04 questions right save ms blackburn just to thank you on behalf of the inquiry team for attending today and assisting us

02:20:09 us and it's right i should thank you very much on behalf of all three of us on the panel for coming here to give your evidence it's always very helpful to get different angles on the same set of

02:20:20 different angles on the same set of circumstances and say we've learned a lot from hearing you so we're very grateful to you and thank you very much indeed okay and now you're free to go thank you thank you

02:20:36 yes mr keating well that's it for today i think as it is thank you very much and uh

02:20:42 uh monday i believe being a bank holiday we're not sitting we will not be sitting certainly we should not be sitting and we shall resume hearing evidence on tuesday of next week at 10 o'clock yes

02:20:53 tuesday of next week at 10 o'clock yes when there'll be another witness for us to

02:20:55 to take evidence from yes that's correct good thank you very much thank you

02:21:01 well thank you all very much 10 o'clock tuesday of next week

02:21:35 you