Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea Evidence - Tuesday 3rd May 2022 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:27 uh

00:00:32 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear from another witness from the royal borough of kensington and chelsea yes mr yes mr chairman good morning good

00:00:44 yes mr yes mr chairman good morning good morning members of the panel i now call miss sue redmond please thank you

00:00:56 good morning miss redmond good morning good morning i understand you're going to affirm yes the words should be there on the screen in front of you would you read them out please i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare

00:01:08 do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much please sit down make yourself comfortable

00:01:22 right thank you yes mr millet yes mr chairman thank you

00:01:26 thank you mr edmund good morning can i start by thanking you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you we're going to take breaks during the course of your evidence the morning

00:01:37 the course of your evidence the morning and then the afternoon but if you need a break at any other time please just let us know and we can do that if you have any difficulty understanding any of my questions just say and i can put the question again or

00:01:48 say and i can put the question again or put it in a different way so that we can get your best evidence one other thing if you could please keep your voice up so that it's it's clear to the person sitting to your right who's who is

00:01:59 sitting to your right who's who is typing away she can get down everything you say on a nice clean transcript also please don't nod or shake your head you have to say yes or no as the case may be all right yes all right now um

00:02:12 all right yes all right now um you've provided two witness statements to the inquiry i'm going to just show them to you and put them in formally first rbk303567

00:02:22 please that should be your first the first page of your first statement of the inquiry of the 28th of january 2019. if we go to page 15 in it please

00:02:33 page 15 in it please there's a signature under the statement of truth and above the date is that your signature yes thank you your second statement is that rbk3058120

00:02:46 is that the first page of your second statement

00:02:50 statement yes thank you and if we go please to page nine

00:02:53 page nine the foot of page nine you can see under the statement of truth there uh a signature above the date of the ninth of april 2020 is that your signature yes have you read both of

00:03:04 signature yes have you read both of these statements recently i have thank you and can you confirm that their contents are true yes thank you now i'm going to start some questions about with with questions about your background is

00:03:15 with questions about your background is it right that at the time of the grenfell tower fire on the 14th of june 2017 you held the role of interim executive director for adult social care or asc

00:03:27 social care or asc and public health yes

00:03:29 yes and you took that role on i think in april 2017 and you held it until october 2017. yes yes and why was that an interim role and because the

00:03:41 and because the previous director had left and they didn't have time to bring someone in straight away so often interims come in just to hold the fort until they recruit to another director and um i

00:03:53 recruit to another director and um i think you were part of the tri-borough agreement yes yes you'd return to the triboro agreement to complete the project which included dissolving the tribora initiative

00:04:04 tribora initiative which involved lbhf london borough of hammersmith and fulham because it wanted to get out of it is that right yes and can you tell us in brief what the tri-borough agreement

00:04:16 in brief what the tri-borough agreement was

00:04:18 yes um in ter certain services like children's services adult services in particular public health the three london boroughs of hammersmith and

00:04:29 london boroughs of hammersmith and fulham westminster and kensington and chelsea they combined those services together so they had one director over the three well they had one executive director over the three councils for

00:04:41 director over the three councils for adult social care for instance instead of one in each and each of those councils then had their own individual director who reportedly the exec director the idea being they could share staff they would save

00:04:53 staff they would save they would save money on sharing stuff but also they could combine how they worked and share good practice yes

00:05:00 yes and can you confirm for us that adult social care moved from being a single borough

00:05:05 borough service to a tri-borough service in 2012. yes yes and i think it's right that you were employed by hammersmith and fulham lbhf but your

00:05:16 by hammersmith and fulham lbhf but your responsibility is this right was for adult social care for all three councils yes yes now um in your first statement at paragraph

00:05:27 paragraph nine you tell us that you had three directors one from each council who reported directly to you is that right yes and is it right that they each had an operational lead role and stella bailey was the director with

00:05:39 and stella bailey was the director with responsibility for lrbkc yes yes she was i think is this right employed by rbkc she was yes and i think within rbkc is this right she was the director for integrated care

00:05:51 integrated care but for all three boroughs yes and i think that's from 2015 as you tell us

00:05:57 tell us yes well bailey tells us that in her statement but does that accord with your recollection yes and adult social care it is this right it provided residential and community-based care for the elderly ill

00:06:08 community-based care for the elderly ill disabled and vulnerable persons yes right

00:06:12 right uh and um

00:06:13 uh and um in relation to those residents coming under its remit that would is this right that that would be ordinarily any resident with mental health problems or learning disabilities or challenges the elderly and people

00:06:26 or challenges the elderly and people with dementia or other vulnerable adult difficulties yes yes how many people worked in the asc department when you were there i i'm not sure exactly but there's

00:06:38 i i'm not sure exactly but there's probably about a thousand people i think yes

00:06:40 yes uh and you say i think you say that it was a thousand rbkc staff is that right oh

00:06:46 oh no i i think i probably meant tribarus tribe

00:06:50 tribe and in 2017 to whom did you appoint the report in your role as interim executive director

00:06:58 director um initially we well i reported um to the hammersmith and fulham chief exec that was nigel palace yes yes and he was he was the lead ceo for the tribal was he for adult social

00:07:10 tribal was he for adult social care well he was that they appointed the director so he was the one i reported very well and did you also report to charlie parker

00:07:21 you also report to charlie parker who was the ceo at westminster yes i had to i had to go and see a report to both and also nicholas as well nicholas holgated rbkc yes now before the fire on the night of the 14th of june 2017 how

00:07:32 the night of the 14th of june 2017 how much contact did you yourself have in that role with nicholas holgate at rbkc i

00:07:40 i i really think i i just was introduced i don't think i've been to a management meeting because i wasn't going to the management meeting so i'd heart i hadn't had any contact with hardly anyone in rbkc management team or nicholas much

00:07:51 rbkc management team or nicholas much just to say hello i think right now i want to ask you some questions next about your experience of dealing with civil emergency responses and crisis management

00:08:03 crisis management in your first statement if we can turn to that please at page two paragraph six you tell us that your background qualification was as a social worker and i'm summarizing here that you'd

00:08:15 and i'm summarizing here that you'd worked in senior positions in local government for a number of years is that is that right yes and i think that included working as an assistant director of adult social care at onesworth council before working at

00:08:27 at onesworth council before working at wiltshire county council as corporate director for some six years before you retired from there in 2015. is that right 2013. 2013. that's right yes

00:08:38 right 2013. 2013. that's right yes now did those roles at wandsworth and wiltshire provide you with civil emergency or crisis management training and they both provided me with um

00:08:50 and they both provided me with um management training and desktop exercises in um

00:08:56 there's the command structure yes basically yes and did you learn about a leadership role

00:09:03 role which had

00:09:04 which had involved training in multiple agency responses involving the gold silver and bronze levels yes

00:09:12 yes and i think you participated as you tell us in a simulation exercise exercise while you were at wheelchair not on the scale of grenfell but basically a desk exercise yes it was a half day a half a day exercise with

00:09:24 half day a half a day exercise with multi with partners i see now when you retired from wiltshire in 2013 you you tell us in your first statement that you undertook um temporary director roles including six months in 2013 as interim

00:09:36 including six months in 2013 as interim director of adult social care employed by lbhf

00:09:41 by lbhf in the same tribal position we've already discussed is that is that correct yes and just help me hear it between the end of your first stint at lbhf in october 2013

00:09:53 lbhf in october 2013 um

00:09:55 um and your return there in april 2017. did you undertake any similar interim director roles i did i was um a similar role in kingston for two years and then um similarly in cheshire

00:10:09 and then um similarly in cheshire kingston and cheshire now when he returned to the triboro in april 2017 as interim executive director for adult social care

00:10:20 for adult social care and public health did you receive any guidance or any information on the contingency management plan from

00:10:28 from lbhf or rbkc no

00:10:32 no none

00:10:33 none so you didn't see is this right rbkc's contingency management plan at that stage

00:10:39 stage i didn't were you aware that it existed and

00:10:44 and only in the in so far as i knew councils had to have a contingency plan and in each of my other interims i was never inducted or given any information about them either right were you aware when

00:10:57 them either right were you aware when you came back in april 2017 that the contingency management plan was a joint plan between rbkc and lbhf no

00:11:07 no you weren't right did that con so was that the same as your experience as your at your previous roles at wandsworth and wiltshire well they all have their own plans right

00:11:18 well they all have their own plans right did you see when you were at wandsworth and then wheelchair did you see those plans um

00:11:23 plans um i would have because i was cooper director i probably i would have probably seen them at management meetings and certainly on the um the training we would have gone through the structures

00:11:34 through the structures and

00:11:35 and what was your understanding in june 2017 of the role of adult social care in the event of an emergency which engaged either lbhfs or rbkc's contingency

00:11:46 either lbhfs or rbkc's contingency management plans well

00:11:49 well my understanding at the time from all my other roles was the role about social care is to look after the people that are known to them so first of all you you look make sure you're you look at your databases

00:12:02 sure you're you look at your databases and you make sure people got care needs are being looked after you also support hospitals so you often maybe try to help people be discharged home

00:12:13 try to help people be discharged home quicker than they might have been so you can free up a hospital you also

00:12:17 you also look at the surrounding areas and make sure home care and all the services is going to be able to be delivered it was it's specifically around those vulnerable adults that you they're

00:12:28 those vulnerable adults that you they're in your service and also you're you have a rotor already set up to staff uh rest centers with social workers and in your role as interim director

00:12:39 and in your role as interim director executive director of adult social care did anybody at rbkc or or indeed lbhf provide emergency response training to you

00:12:48 you no do they discuss

00:12:52 emergency response training with you at any induction when you came back to the triborough in april 2017. no had you received any training during

00:13:03 had you received any training during your first time in the role back in 2013.

00:13:07 2013. no

00:13:10 before the grenfell tower fire in june 2017 had you ever had an operational role as a director of adult social care during an emergency response no now we know that during the

00:13:23 now we know that during the response to the grenfell tower fire you were given the role of humanitarian assistance lead officer also known as the halo that's correct isn't

00:13:32 isn't it um yes i did have that role yes um what was your knowledge at that time of what that role involved

00:13:41 involved i say at that time at the moment you took it on and

00:13:48 i i actually took the role on later on on the day of the 14th i think um and by that time i had advice from tony andrews from westminster about what the role was

00:14:01 westminster about what the role was um

00:14:02 um and

00:14:03 and i actually took it on i actually then wrote to uh nicholas hogan said i've got advice i can do this role before that um i didn't have any idea what the role was and i think um that both stella who

00:14:17 was and i think um that both stella who had the role initially and myself just thought it was i meant just it was about rotators for arrest centers who's doing the normal things that adult social care directors do right

00:14:33 now we'll come to the humanitarian assistance framework later in your evidence but in relation to the role of halo

00:14:41 halo um

00:14:42 um were you aware when you took it on of what it meant or what how how it was defined um

00:14:50 um i

00:14:51 i i knew uh because i'd read the guidance that night that it was to coordinate multi-agency responses um a few not in terms of the emergency but in terms of longer-term support

00:15:03 longer-term support let's look at the framework uh for the moment briefly rbk3011313 please i'll show you the i'll show you page one and then we can look at

00:15:13 at um

00:15:15 um page two

00:15:18 there's the there's the first page and this is

00:15:21 this is the version the five-point naught as of april 2017 and if we go to page two please you can see the second entry down humanitarian assistance lead officer

00:15:32 humanitarian assistance lead officer halo

00:15:33 halo the halo

00:15:34 the halo will be appointed by local authority gold and will typically be a director with responsibility for adult social care the halo will bring together partners including health the police and

00:15:45 partners including health the police and voluntary and faith sectors to oversee the humanitarian assistance effort they form the humanitarian assistance steering group h.a.s.g

00:15:56 steering group h.a.s.g so did you understand at the time that it was a role where you as the holder being appointed required

00:16:03 required knowledge of the specific council emergency plans for each borough as well as the wider london resilience humanitarian assistance framework no i didn't understand that you didn't

00:16:14 no i didn't understand that you didn't right

00:16:15 right were you familiar with this definition when you took the role on well this definition was sent to me i read it in the evening of the fourteenth right okay and i read that to be from where i was sitting at the time by

00:16:27 from where i was sitting at the time by myself without anyone supporting me to be a coordination role so i thought i could coordinate a meeting basically and did you consider whether your previous training or your experience prepared you in any way for this role

00:16:39 this role i can well mostly i considered that the fact that i didn't know anyone in rbkc that i wouldn't be the right person for this role right did you make that clear to em

00:16:50 did you make that clear to em rbkc or or tony andrews uh tony didn't work for rbkc tony was a westminster and he was he was sending me uh the first time i got something from him it was to say just to let you know this is this is the

00:17:02 just to let you know this is this is the framework in case you need it right and i didn't really take cognizance of how it's serious to read this huge document whenever i got it at three o'clock in that afternoon did it surprise you at the time that

00:17:13 did it surprise you at the time that there was no person more readily available who was familiar with this document already and had some training on it and it surprised me not particularly maybe that because i didn't know no one had had any training

00:17:24 didn't know no one had had any training on it but it surprised me that no one else stepped up to do this role right so you had is this right be colloquial about you had a why me moment yes yes um let's turn to the the events

00:17:38 yes yes um let's turn to the the events of the 14th of june then um can you recall when you first became aware of the fire at grenfell tower and i think it was very early in the morning and stuart rang me

00:17:49 morning and stuart rang me right sixish were you aware at that time that the rbkc contingency management plan had been activated

00:17:58 no what did you consider at that stage that you

00:18:03 that you particularly the adult social care department was required to do um

00:18:09 um ann stewart work for hammersmith and fulham and so first of all um i was surprised she was ringing me uh but she was the emergency duty person on duty that night so i knew that we had to i didn't know she said there was a fire

00:18:20 didn't know she said there was a fire and you need to come in well she said i'm i'm dean i'm going through the database so i knew as i said before the sort of things out of social care had to do

00:18:29 do in terms of looking after our own people who might have been affected she told you she was going through the database which which database was that was that your triborough asc database yes i see

00:18:41 yes i see and did that have details of those people who uh

00:18:46 uh received those services and where they lived yes i see and and in relation to that database how up to

00:18:54 up to date was it or should it have been in accordance with it with the usual processes adopted i can only think it was very up-to-date they're usually very up to date in terms

00:19:06 they're usually very up to date in terms of people we know right um

00:19:11 right um we may come back to this later in your evidence but since we're on it now let me just ask you um

00:19:18 who was it in rbkc upon whom you relied to keep that database up to date well stella was the director of rbkc

00:19:28 um do you know whether how what

00:19:31 how what steps stellar bailey took visa v the tmo rbkc's tmo to keep

00:19:39 to keep that her information about vulnerable persons in our bkc up to date

00:19:48 i don't know i'm struggling with the connection between the tmo um right she would have known who we would have had addresses of everyone known to adult social care they would have been in the adult social care database right i don't know whether i don't know

00:20:00 right i don't know whether i don't know what contact she had with the tmo about about their how to support them at times of emergencies right let me ask it slightly differently then to what extent was there any communication or a conduit for

00:20:11 there any communication or a conduit for information between the triboro asc database on the one hand and rbkc's housing department on the other

00:20:21 other i have no no all right now um if we go to your first statement please page 4 paragraph 17 and 18

00:20:32 and 18 um you say um in the at the end of paragraph 17 having been called at about 6 a.m that you made your way to the back of the town hall

00:20:45 your way to the back of the town hall to offer any assistance and find out what was required do you remember what time you arrived at the back

00:20:52 i don't but it was it was very early i can't remember what exact time right how would you describe what you observed when you arrived um

00:21:03 observed when you arrived um well it was a small small room with um no windows it had three televisions on um

00:21:10 um and that's the first time i saw grenville tower um

00:21:15 um and there were quite a few people in there um

00:21:21 right yeah okay uh and

00:21:25 and were you aware at that time or did you did you learn who was council silva and in charge of the beg

00:21:34 no um i didn't know who was in charge of the beck

00:21:41 did you speak to anybody to find out what was required of you um yes well um i knew what straightaway there was myself there is out of social care and there was a children's services and there was anne stewart and between

00:21:53 there was anne stewart and between children and adults we were looking at our own stuff we were making plans about hospital discharges we're making plans about rotors of social workers that's what we were doing at that time and we were both um both

00:22:05 were both um both section it was quite siloed we were just getting on with that in terms of adult social care was that stuart there yes working remotely she was in the back over there right and uh do you know what time she arrived you know and she was the emergency duty officer i think she

00:22:17 the emergency duty officer i think she must have got there about six right before then

00:22:26 now when you were going through the asc database

00:22:30 database uh

00:22:32 uh did the search parameters that you were using do you know include those residents in the surrounding areas in other words not just grenfell tower but those in surrounding the surrounding

00:22:43 those in surrounding the surrounding blocks

00:22:44 blocks the walkways as far as i can remember i think just at that time it was grenville tower i think later on um people started looking at surrounding areas but that time i think it was just grenfer can you recall when

00:22:56 it was just grenfer can you recall when asc became aware of the need to consider those in the surrounding areas walkways i can't remember when or tread gold house no

00:23:07 house no they would i can't remember them do you know what was done in relation to those who were identified on the asc database

00:23:15 yes um their social workers were contacted all these people were known to the the council so they had social workers or they had some support worker and all those support workers or social workers were contacted

00:23:27 were contacted and asked to see if they could contact either

00:23:30 either people or their next to kin and to see if they could see if they were located that they were safe and to bring back was there any specific action in relation to that to identifying those who may have been sent to hospital

00:23:41 who may have been sent to hospital social workers were sent to hospitals as well um

00:23:45 well um both to be there to to support people when they got there but also as i said before to help hospitals discharge existing patients so we did send social gears at hospital now the

00:23:56 now the the earliest record we have in the inquiries documents is um that a social worker went to to a hospital uh at 8 30 a.m and we get that from this is for our records a

00:24:07 from this is for our records a spreadsheet at rbk3028713 row 19 column e don't worry about me showing it to you does that accord with your recollection

00:24:18 your recollection it would probably be the right timing because yeah right now in your statement if we go to paragraph 22 please we just move down to paragraph 22 on page

00:24:28 page six you say there sorry page five you say um at around 9 30 on 14th of june i tasked stella bailey with setting up a rest center

00:24:39 bailey with setting up a rest center rota for social workers to ensure that there were social workers providing support at the rest centers stellar was the director of the asc team at rbkc and had been in post for many years and was hugely experienced a request for

00:24:51 hugely experienced a request for volunteers was made so that we could provide the required number of social workers at each of the three main rest centers on the rota basis and ensure they were staffed properly and staffed properly on a continuous basis

00:25:02 properly on a continuous basis to whom is that support to be directed

00:25:08 and at that time it was to well there was a generic call for support to go to rest centers it wasn't specific about which rest centers right

00:25:19 centers right after that though they were allocated to different rest centers now and what i really mean is was the support to be given or directed uh to uh those who had escaped from the

00:25:30 uh to uh those who had escaped from the tower or was it family members seeking information uh it was it that support was for the rest centers specifically whoever was there i see do you know why it took until 9 30 a.m to set that rater up or

00:25:42 until 9 30 a.m to set that rater up or to request that that wrote to be set up and i think 9 30 was and before that as i was saying um and stuart was she did have a rota of people who were ready to go and there were some people already

00:25:53 go and there were some people already ready to go i think we were waiting to be told when to send them right i see and can you say when social workers from the asc were actually deployed to rest centers

00:26:04 deployed to rest centers i think it was been about i think at 9 30 must be the time we knew what rest centers to go to and and there was a decision made that we should send

00:26:14 send people out we couldn't just send them without some instructions and some coordination so i think it was about that time it might have been 10 o'clock right

00:26:22 right so

00:26:22 so are you saying that that

00:26:26 that you didn't know which rest centers were operating to which social workers should be sent until about 9 30. no people didn't know rest centers but

00:26:37 rest centers but and there was a rotor of we already had the rotor but i'm trying to remember that um i think officially we said go to we need something to go to this this and this specific rest centers at that time

00:26:48 this specific rest centers at that time right i see so you already had the rest centers you already knew which they were you just hadn't worked the writer out until well there was a there was a list of a lot of places um

00:27:00 list of a lot of places um that people were going to so in terms of which specific rest centers to send people to i think we needed to know from someone in the back or somewhere where they would best be sent right

00:27:12 they would best be sent right to the best of your recollection was the bec clear with you at all times about which centers rest centers were operating

00:27:20 operating it's only in retrospect that i really understood what the beck was supposed to be doing because at that time and that day i didn't get any sense of any

00:27:31 of any anyone coordinating what was happening certainly from my perspective in there so um

00:27:37 so um i think we someone told us around 9 30 which rest sentences to go to right

00:27:46 but before that was there any any discussion that you were either involved with or heard about which rest centers were operating um i heard that there were um

00:27:58 that there were um there was lots going on and i just heard lots of names mentioned right i see but right

00:28:04 right lots of wrest center names mentioned lots of

00:28:06 lots of accommodation names mentioned yes

00:28:10 you said a moment ago in one of your answers um that you weren't sure what the beck was or what it was supposed to do

00:28:21 can we take it from that that you'd never had any training about what abec was who was supposed to be running it and what and what your role as a halo

00:28:32 as a halo would be and how it would fit no right so you were essentially what learning on the job were you yes i knew um in in terms of um the training i'd had before on gold silver and bronze

00:28:43 had before on gold silver and bronze they were talking about first responders and second responders so i can't remember anything it must anything about a beck and my training was like 2010. and was there sufficient capacity available to you to provide social

00:28:54 available to you to provide social workers on the rotor to the three main rest centers that you refer to well i think initially um of course i think initially we did have um

00:29:06 i think initially we did have um enough social workers that we thought would be enough um

00:29:10 um and obviously very quickly um it was realized there's going to be a rotor throughout the day and the next day and i think then we were really looking for volunteers and where were you looking for those

00:29:21 and where were you looking for those volunteers only at that time um it was across rbkc and westminster and um

00:29:28 um hammersmith and fulham it was asking any social workers to join a rotor right um i'd like them to turn next to the rbkc management board meeting at 11 a.m

00:29:39 rbkc management board meeting at 11 a.m on the 14th of june which is which has been referred to as rbkc gold and meetings of rbkc gold if we go please to

00:29:50 please to pay paragraph 23 just a little bit lower down your screen you deal with that board meeting in paragraph 23 there and

00:29:59 and you say my predecessor did not attend the management board meetings in rbkc she would attend the westminster city council ones only so i was not scheduled to attend that meeting and stella would attend however i was copied into an

00:30:11 attend however i was copied into an email from nicholas holgate chief executive at rbkc informing us that in light of the tragic events at grenfell tower the scheduled meeting would take place as a gold meeting stella bailey

00:30:22 place as a gold meeting stella bailey said she was happy to continue to attend the meeting as normal on the basis that she knew the management that would be attending this made complete sense to me this was a crisis in the presence of a stranger albeit the interim executive

00:30:35 stranger albeit the interim executive director was not in my opinion going to assist

00:30:38 assist now um

00:30:40 now um is it right that the meeting was a scheduled meeting that was then converted into an rbkc gold meeting in light of the events unfolding that morning yes yes um and

00:30:52 and bearing in mind that you're already in the town did you consider at the time that you should have attended in light of the seriousness of the incident um i was with uh in the back with um ann

00:31:03 um i was with uh in the back with um ann and stella was the very experienced director and that i just said well you go to well she said i'm going to the first one i didn't consider that i i should go i wasn't invited to the management it wasn't part

00:31:15 invited to the management it wasn't part of the management i didn't think at that moment right

00:31:20 and was there even in retrospect any skill set or set of experiences that you could have brought to that meeting which she didn't

00:31:30 and i can't think of any um let's then look at the minutes of that meeting rbk401095

00:31:39 page uh one to start with to show you the first page of it and the attendees there it is 11 a.m at kensington town hall action sheet and you could see who was present

00:31:51 and you could see who was present and in attendance

00:31:55 uh and we can see apologies for absence sue redmond uh it's not a matter for you just to apologize or explain the apology but i think is it right you weren't

00:32:06 but i think is it right you weren't scheduled to be there anyway no yes sorry it's right yeah yes and now if we go to page two we can see the update from cc and sb the latter of which is stellar bailey sb

00:32:19 the latter of which is stellar bailey sb um

00:32:20 um and that includes the the fact that asc of and as it says pull third bullet point down pulls together a list of known residents accessing a number of council services but do not know where they all are

00:32:32 but do not know where they all are currently

00:32:34 currently and then it goes on in the next bullet point the crisis center are on standby to offer help to mental health service users there are a number of over 65s and the enabling team

00:32:45 number of over 65s and the enabling team are on site and what is the what was the crisis center

00:32:52 this is a specific service to rbkc which i don't know about but i think it's the the joint service with um health met with the health service and the social workers who are mental health

00:33:03 the social workers who are mental health service and i don't actually know who they are right can you help us what was the enabling team do you know i don't know they know we weren't at this meeting to be fair um so let's there may be a limit to how much you can help with

00:33:14 be a limit to how much you can help with it but if we go to page four um it refers in the fifth bullet point down there uh

00:33:23 uh i'm sorry third bullet a fourth bullet point down there it says looking to set up a humanitarian assistance group which will continue to look at the welfare of the residents once the immediate crisis is over

00:33:34 is over tr to seek advice from an expert in harrow council on this sb said she was happy to take lead on this until friday and would find a deputy to take over

00:33:45 did you know that time what the what a humanitarian assistance steering group entailed no now you mentioned in your statement at paragraph 25

00:33:57 paragraph 25 as we've seen over the page that it had been said that stella would take the lead on that but because she was due to go on leave you were given the role do you remember when it was decided that you would become what is known as a halo

00:34:10 you would become what is known as a halo a humanitarian assistance lead officer uh no um not specifically because it it sort of organic in a way and i actually at the end said i'll do it um

00:34:22 at the end said i'll do it um so when stella said this and when i read it again i was really surprised because i think um this wasn't mentioned throughout the day that a humanitarian assistant group would be looked at again right and that

00:34:34 would be looked at again right and that was the only reference i've seen to it stella didn't come back to me and said she was going to lead she was going to be a halo she i think her response was the same as mine what we knew adult social care could do i can't i can't say

00:34:46 social care could do i can't i can't say anymore but no one came back no one spoke about a humanitarian assistance group for the rest of the day right

00:34:55 right and i think as you told us earlier you had a why me moment just to pick that up in your statement if we can go please to your second statement

00:35:04 statement at rbk3058120

00:35:08 page 3 paragraph 3.3

00:35:14 you uh you say there in the second sentence when i was designated the role of halo on 14th of june 2017 i did question whether i was the right person for the

00:35:26 whether i was the right person for the role as i was relatively new to the borough and did not know too many people nor have all the contact details of those both internally within our bkc and external agencies that could provide assistance

00:35:37 assistance i accepted the role explaining that i would need further support and i did receive a lot of support from tony andrews westminster city council when you accepted the role did you as you say you did you say i you

00:35:48 as you say you did you say i you questioned whether you were the right person for the role did you articulate that question to tony andrews or anybody else um

00:35:57 um yes i know i had conversations and um i've seen emails that i've sent to say some expert is coming in after me raising this so i must i spoke to quite a few people

00:36:09 a few people but you nonetheless took on the role well

00:36:12 well if i could just explain a little bit then um

00:36:16 then um that afternoon um stella said she was going to leave so i said i would i would step in um in terms of her role not knowing what that role was at that time and then uh tony andrews from

00:36:27 and then uh tony andrews from westminster city council sent me uh the framework and then in the evening he sent me um

00:36:35 um specifics about what the role is and what they do after that no one actually said to me you are the halo at that evening i mean i'm probably going too far i can come back to you so no one actually said to me will you be the halo

00:36:47 me will you be the halo it wasn't it wasn't actually agreed formally till the next day i see

00:36:55 um now then let's just stick with the 14th of june for the moment um you we go back to your first sentence your first paragraph

00:37:04 paragraph uh i'm so sorry your first statement please at rbk3035676

00:37:11 page six paragraph 27 at the foot of the page you say an asc heads of service meeting was held at around 1400 hours on 14th of june

00:37:23 june you see that and then um if we go to your second

00:37:29 second statement please page four paragraph 5.2 you tell us a little bit more about that meeting

00:37:38 and you say it was led by stella bailey to update coordinate and ensure all people known to social care were receiving care still and that hospitals could be supported and people moved out to free up capacity the meeting also

00:37:50 to free up capacity the meeting also discussed rotors and the provision of cover the meeting was attended by the asc managers from all three councils in order to support our bkc's small management team i attended the meeting but arrived later and i'm not shown

00:38:02 but arrived later and i'm not shown on the list of attendees uh now let's look then against that background in your statement at the draft minutes of that meeting it's at rbkc3058106

00:38:25 and i think you tell us that you don't believe that formal minutes were taken these are drafts

00:38:33 drafts and if you look at the um

00:38:37 um email

00:38:38 email if you go to the bottom of the of the email on page one where the note begins uh you can see there's it says discussion and the first bullet point or dash there says neither comms pulled

00:38:50 dash there says neither comms pulled together to advise staff what to say to clients

00:38:53 clients was such a plan pulled together do you remember

00:38:59 um i can't remember a specific plan being pulled together but certainly our social care staff hopefully we were told what to say to clients right and they were told basically they were

00:39:10 and they were told basically they were saying they were contacting their own clients who they'd known and they were asking them did they know where their next kim was or did they know things so it wasn't at com's plan in terms of the disaster or anything i

00:39:22 in terms of the disaster or anything i see so there wasn't one there wasn't a comms plan per se no i see and what was the advice given to staff about what they should say to their own clients

00:39:32 clients um

00:39:33 um well basically we're asking them to see if first of all they could locate them if not they could locate the next of kin and then they found out that they were safe and then they could tell them where the rest centers were

00:39:45 now if you look at the last point on page one it says one of the asc's focus is the humanitarian needs of those affected we'll need to pull together a regular board but in the meantime we

00:39:56 regular board but in the meantime we need to create a rotor for cover at the three rest centers someone if we go to the next page top of the screen someone will need to be awake and alert and not alone ideally we want three people per

00:40:08 alone ideally we want three people per rest sent up per shift

00:40:13 in relation to um

00:40:16 um pulling together a regular board there what was that a reference to do you know i don't know um and um i think everyone was just concentrating on the rotor for the um

00:40:27 concentrating on the rotor for the um for the rest centers right did that

00:40:31 did that or was that board related to the humanitarian assistance steering group or a hasg that then came to be set up i can only assume it must be right

00:40:44 i can only assume it must be right or there was a possibility that i suppose a board might have been suggested and then superseded by the creation of a humanitarian assistant steering group can you help us i think this is indicative that people didn't really

00:40:55 indicative that people didn't really know what

00:40:58 know what what was what right was there any dis any discussion at this meeting two o'clock on the 14th of the humanitarian assistance framework document or the need for a steering group

00:41:10 or the need for a steering group no no

00:41:12 no no um as you can see here that there's a reference to a need a need to create a rotor for cover at the three rest centers

00:41:19 centers three people per rest center per shift and again if you look at

00:41:25 at the same page lower down there's a bullet point seven bullet points down about two thirds of the way down your screen which says need people do you see it need people to volunteer need people

00:41:37 it need people to volunteer need people to volunteer for tonight's rest center shifts and to look into this the volunteer rest centres haven't taken a list of who's there so we can't cross reference so it's chaotic and confusing we need the people at our rest centers

00:41:48 we need the people at our rest centers to stay at our rest centers now two things about that first was staffing the rest centers and filling the rotor a problem at the start of this response

00:41:59 of this response i think at the start because they had a they already had a wrote of some people those people were called straight away but i think as it folded um there was a real need to get

00:42:10 folded um there was a real need to get volunteers and there wasn't there wasn't there was a concern about how many volunteers they needed now there's a reference here also to the taking of lists at rest centers can you explain

00:42:21 can you explain as you say in what way it was chaotic and confusing i didn't say that um

00:42:30 um i think that was understood it well it okay uh the email says it um

00:42:36 um going back to that second book that seventh bullet point in the middle of your screen or two thirds of the way down your screen it says um we can't cross-reference so it's chaotic and confusing was that not a view you shared at the time

00:42:47 view you shared at the time um i don't know whether was that the whole of that meeting um but it wasn't obviously that's what dan said um and i don't know whether i showed it or not because i was in this i wasn't

00:42:59 not because i was in this i wasn't really connected into what was happening at the rest centers right

00:43:05 do you know how it was known that the volunteer rest centers were not taking a list

00:43:09 list of those who were there is that being reported and i don't know how that was known now we know that a number of locations opened up

00:43:20 a number of locations opened up spontaneously on the night of the fire as places of shelter and rbkc then designated the locations that they would support first the harrow club and then the rugby portobello trust and then a decision later to concentrate

00:43:32 and then a decision later to concentrate efforts on the westway center is that your recollection of the official rest centers on the night is a harrow club the same as the um clement james no okay well

00:43:43 okay well um then no no do you remember what the process was of registering those who had attended an official rest center so designated

00:43:55 no

00:43:57 do you know whether the information of those or about those who did register was collated from the three rest centers that i mentioned here in the minutes well i only know in retrospect having

00:44:08 well i only know in retrospect having heard all right well then even in retrospect were they

00:44:14 sorry were they were they collated well sorry i only know what i've heard in these hearings and i know they weren't deleted um was it was it the case that

00:44:26 case that that a number of days displaced by the fire would move from rest center to rest center looking for information regarding missing loved ones

00:44:35 ones that's what i'm i believe you believe so and do you know how someone who would attend more than one rest center would be recorded no no

00:44:44 no no and presumably you don't know how the numbers of those attending rest centers would be collated

00:44:52 collated no

00:44:55 let's then turn to the next meeting which was at 3 00 pm 1500 hours on the 14th of june and that was an rbkc gold meeting and you cover that

00:45:06 you cover that at paragraph 26 of your first statement on page six if we can go to that please page six paragraph 26 it's up on the screen you say stella bailey and i both

00:45:18 you say stella bailey and i both attended the 1500 hours gold meeting i think this was on the basis that i became aware that stella was due to go on annual leave on the friday after work therefore it was sensible that i was involved for continuity and to

00:45:30 involved for continuity and to understand the issues at the time

00:45:35 attending the meeting what was your impression of what was happening what was your impression of the meeting

00:45:48 um

00:45:52 on one hand um there were lots there were reports from people saying um i'm trying to think of specifics they were saying some things hadn't worked like senior managers at wrestlers but they were there now so on the one hand

00:46:04 they were there now so on the one hand there was a sense that people were doing things that should be right on the other hand i just got a sense of people being

00:46:15 people being shocked and um it wasn't

00:46:19 it wasn't it wasn't a tactical meeting as such right it was a dif a meeting that was different from people they were they were updating things and it

00:46:30 things and it and there was lots going on there's lots lots of information there and very hard to then work out who was accountable and responsible for what did you form any view about whether rbkc had a clear

00:46:41 any view about whether rbkc had a clear strategy and sufficient resources to deal with the aftermath of this fire and

00:46:50 at that time um as i say there was sort of it felt like a reassurance from people senior managers are there now um we've got the rotors we're got this everyone's saying they're

00:47:01 we're got this everyone's saying they're individual things so in that respect it seemed

00:47:05 seemed as though people were doing things um obviously i know that's that wasn't the case at all but i

00:47:12 but i i didn't get the sense that there was real um there was urgency on some things but there wasn't a real sense of and there was lots of managers in the room and i didn't know why some of them weren't out there

00:47:25 weren't out there or doing other things there was lots of us in the room

00:47:31 so just trying to i didn't want to paraphrase that answer but would it be right to say and correct me if this is wrong but your impression was that although there was plenty of activity it wasn't coordinated or structured and following a particular plan i didn't i

00:47:43 following a particular plan i didn't i didn't get a sense of it's following a plan

00:47:46 plan did you get a feeling or did you get an a did you form a view about whether rbkc had sufficient resources to do what they were trying to do i

00:47:55 i i hadn't i didn't have any idea then because

00:47:58 because for me because i didn't know those people i was hearing senior managers are there we're doing this we got this um i did i i knew we were we were struggling with some social workers um

00:48:09 struggling with some social workers um but we had a road for the next day let's go to the minutes rbk402282

00:48:20 and you can see there 3 p.m kensington town hall action sheet and you can see who was

00:48:25 who was in attendance

00:48:28 stellar bailly is identified there as are you

00:48:33 are you also in attendance robert black as you can see he was from the tmo and if you look at under the head in grenfell tower fire uh fourth bullet point down it says uh tr

00:48:44 it says uh tr uh who was tony redpath uh reported the bec were finding out about the numbers of people in the rest centers and what practical assistance they needed consideration to be given on

00:48:55 they needed consideration to be given on how the donations can be transported to the rest centers once the sense of demand was ascertained was there clarity any clarity about the amount of people affected at

00:49:06 about the amount of people affected at that stage i don't think there was was there any mention any discussion of any problem about obtaining an accurate understanding of the numbers

00:49:17 understanding of the numbers affected adversely and what practical assistance they needed i can't remember that though there was any discussion it was

00:49:26 it was what was that what was the upshot of that discussion i'm sorry i can't remember that the one i remember that there was i'm sorry i misheard you that's yes i see and if we go then to the final

00:49:37 yes i see and if we go then to the final entry on page two of the minutes

00:49:44 above agreed to reconvene it says in that last bullet point tr to communicate with sr on which rest centers to keep open overnight did tony redpath communicate with you on

00:49:56 did tony redpath communicate with you on that issue i can't specifically remember but i think it we agreed it was would be the west way that would open that night and the reason he was communicating with

00:50:07 and the reason he was communicating with me to make sure that the social workers were there and supporting them yes

00:50:16 was it the case that you yourself wanted to go out to the rest centers were being asked to remain because leadership was needed in the office i wanted to do something yeah and i did suggest i'd go

00:50:28 something yeah and i did suggest i'd go to on two two separate occasions who asked you to stay i can't remember but um i said look i can can i go out and do something and they said oh no we need you're the other social care you need to stay here i also

00:50:39 social care you need to stay here i also asked

00:50:40 asked on the friday with gold london as well and i was told no right

00:50:46 let's then turn back to the time you took on the role of halo

00:50:52 and as we've seen already you took it on expressly it seems is this right on the basis that you needed further support yes yes yes now the support you received again is this correct it was in the form

00:51:04 again is this correct it was in the form of tony andrews who was i think at that stage the emergency planning manager humanitarian assistance at westminster city council yes

00:51:12 yes and you say in your first statement that he told you um

00:51:17 um that as the interim executive director it was your role according to national protocol to lead on humanitarian assistance yes that's what you say in your statement

00:51:27 statement a paragraph 29 we can see it if you like no um i think at some point you told me that but what he did initially was send us all in the social care framework document that framework document to say

00:51:39 document that framework document to say you might want to have a read of this right

00:51:41 right he was being very helpful do you remember when he sent that document to you i know from records that he sent that email to us all about two o'clock on the 14th

00:51:52 two o'clock on the 14th right and did you have the conversation with him when he told you it was your role to lead on national protocol well he sent um sent me a document at two o'clock i don't know when i opened it um

00:52:03 o'clock i don't know when i opened it um and it was a framework it was that huge framework document um and it was only later when i think i'd come out of goal meetings that i think i rang we actually had a conversation about that

00:52:15 actually had a conversation about that role and what it what it is and who's supposed to do it and that's when i then went to um people in rbc and said could someone else do you want me to do you know i i wanted to do something

00:52:28 know i i wanted to do something but um i actually didn't think maybe i was the right person to do it and who did you tell at rbkc i think i can't remember but i think it might have been tony redpath i can't remember i spoke to a few i might have also

00:52:39 i spoke to a few i might have also spoken to nicholas because after that then came a discussion about some expert will be coming tomorrow to take on the halo roll

00:52:46 halo roll you see i might have spoken to nicholas is that nicholas holgate yes and was he in the back where were you inside let me try this where were you when you had that conversation with him i have no idea right was he was it face

00:52:58 i have no idea right was he was it face to face or was it on the telephone it would have been face to face right somewhere in kensington town hall yeah right

00:53:05 right uh now um

00:53:07 uh now um let's go to uh rbk3019928

00:53:18 this is an email from tony andrews on the 14th of june 2017 timed at 20 24 in the evening to you subject humanitarian assistance steering group suggestion

00:53:30 group suggestion attachments grenfell tower hasg suggestion sue here are some thoughts for your first meeting for what it's worth your role according to the london humanitarian assistance framework is

00:53:41 humanitarian assistance framework is humanitarian assistance lead officer halo you may like to put my 24 7 contact numbers below on your phone now before that point

00:53:52 now before that point had you heard of halo

00:53:57 um if i had it it had only been when i read i read the document right and the doc had you already received the document the

00:54:08 the framework

00:54:09 framework from tony andrews before this point yes he'd sent the framework about two o'clock on friday this was this is more specifics he was actually giving me some specifics and um a bit more detail

00:54:20 some specifics and um a bit more detail yes well

00:54:23 yes well it's attached to this email that we see the a document called the humanitarian assistance steering group let's just look at that because we can see what's attached rbk30 is 19929

00:54:38 and it has that very title and it says in the first paragraph the hasg sits under the local authority recovery group which is typically chaired by the chief exec to coordinate all recovery issues

00:54:51 exec to coordinate all recovery issues community reassurance built environment issues community cohesion business continuity issues etc you may get the hasg started before the recovery group starts

00:55:02 starts the hasg is a multi-agency group typically chaired by the director of adult social care who has lead responsibility for humanitarian assistance under the civil contingency act 2004. the purpose is to lead oversee

00:55:14 act 2004. the purpose is to lead oversee and coordinate all aspects of the humanitarian response in this incident that is likely to include and then you can see a long long list of numbered roles and functions

00:55:27 roles and functions do you see that yes i'm not just pausing there um

00:55:31 there um when you got this document did you look at

00:55:37 look at the framework document that you had been sent earlier in the day to see how your role fitted into this

00:55:45 yes you did and if we look at um the third paragraph uh on um

00:55:52 uh on um page one and then all the numbers you would agree i think that that these are a significant number of areas for you to oversee as halo yes yes yes and one of those if we go to point

00:56:03 those if we go to point oops we've lost lost the document can we go back to the document please rbk3019929

00:56:10 the second item down point two says rest centers and other immediate needs the hasg probably only needs brief assurance from the person coordinating rest centers that the following are being

00:56:22 centers that the following are being taken care of and may only need a more detailed discussion if there are problems needing higher level resolution eg more substantial mutual aid from other local authorities and partners

00:56:33 other local authorities and partners and on the 14th and into the 15th who did you consider was the person coordinating the rest centers

00:56:47 well um i actually had one person's name but i don't think she was um i i know gold were coordinating they were doing discussions of gold there was a woman called sue harris who

00:56:58 there was a woman called sue harris who i found was out there reporting back i thought she was managing the rest centers i think i'm mistaken about that now but at the time i thought it might have been her why do you why do you think you're mistaken because um

00:57:10 mistaken because um well i don't know actually right so it's the answer you don't know yes i don't know who was recording right

00:57:17 and did you have any idea about what the brc the british red cross were doing and what their role was at that time um

00:57:29 i don't think i had any detailed idea what they were doing at that time i soon i very soon did but no i didn't you so you very soon did when when did you very soon do um

00:57:40 you very soon do um well the next morning right and what when you did come to understand it did you understand their role to be uh well um the council were um was with i think i did ask some questions the

00:57:51 i think i did ask some questions the council said um the richard red cross go in first they coordinate our arrest centers for us and they communicate with people

00:57:57 people and when i spoke to the british red cross

00:58:00 cross um

00:58:03 their view wasn't quite the same right we may come back to that later in your evidence but just while we're on it who was it who told you who at the council told you that the british red cross go in first they coordinate our

00:58:14 cross go in first they coordinate our rest centers and communicate with people oh um so many people uh it was some it might have been stuart priestley or tony redpath right now um can we go back to the email chain

00:58:27 now um can we go back to the email chain in the evening of the 14th of june between you and tony andrews um you responded to his email and we can see that at rbk305

00:58:40 and this refers or

00:58:43 or captures what you just told us about your conversation with nicholas holgate it's from you to tony andrews at 21 15 on the 14th of june thanks so much tony and then you give

00:58:55 thanks so much tony and then you give your number and then in the next line it says nicholas just told me that some expert is going to come to help on this front from london councils so i will find out tomorrow if i'm the halo or not but in

00:59:08 tomorrow if i'm the halo or not but in the meantime i've read some of your framework thanks and we'll read this and i will catch up with you even on phone tomorrow when i know now

00:59:17 now i'm taking the nicholas there is nicholas holgate yes yes now do you remember

00:59:23 remember who the expert from london councils or perhaps london resilience was to be at that stage no

00:59:29 no i mean i don't know rather than i don't remember i don't know you don't know

00:59:37 uh given that you felt that as you say somebody else could or perhaps should have occupied the role of halo the following day did the lack of information delay the setting up of the humanitarian

00:59:48 setting up of the humanitarian assistance steering group on the 14th of june

00:59:55 well on the 14th of june um i'd only this is um eight o'clock at night when i'm getting the information about what a halo is and i didn't it didn't it didn't stop me setting it up first thing in the morning

01:00:06 setting it up first thing in the morning because i went in at eight o'clock and did all the business for even before i knew whether i was doing it or not so i didn't know what else i could do then right um now i think you had email contact with nicholas holgate that same

01:00:18 contact with nicholas holgate that same evening at around about the same time in fact the next thing you did because if we look at rbk3019951

01:00:26 we could see you had you sent him an email six minutes after sending this back to tony andrews and you say and this is at 20 21 21 21

01:00:37 and this is at 20 21 21 21 21

01:00:39 21 and you say to him nicholas i hope you're okay just to let you know i have good support and advice about setting up the humanitarian assistance board asap i'm happy to start this tomorrow but we'll await our meeting with you in the morning and of course if we have the

01:00:51 morning and of course if we have the expert from london councils we can agree who does what and take it from there just wanted to give you some reassurance um why did you think he needed reassurance i think um and i've i

01:01:03 reassurance i think um and i've i remember this i think it wasn't really that i

01:01:07 that i i had by that time that afternoon um

01:01:11 um seen

01:01:14 seen lack of coordination um and i'd spoken to tony redbaton priestly about that right um

01:01:20 right um and i said you need to get structured you need to get sorted and then when i read this um i knew i felt that if i just came in this one

01:01:31 just came in this one people didn't know setting up this humanitarian assistance steering group that there's no way um it would have been

01:01:39 been in any structure um i i thought we were in danger of setting something up to duplicate everything else now i'm running around doing the same thing which it had been happening so this email was actually

01:01:50 happening so this email was actually just i sent and i think i also send the actual

01:01:55 actual advice i've got from tony to actually say what it was i was actually saying this is what this is it's a serious group

01:02:02 group i'm happy to start it just so you know and it was really saying i need this to be part of a structure i should have i should have been more explicit but that's what i was actually saying

01:02:13 actually saying right

01:02:15 and this is me saying i'll do it um because i wasn't actually no one's no one's in the meantime told me to do it or set it up right now i think you you do say in your statement at paragraph 7.7 of your second statement

01:02:28 paragraph 7.7 of your second statement you got a response from mr mr holgate to your email a few minutes later let's go to that rbk3058107

01:02:37 this is an email sent by him back to you four minutes later 21.25 and he says sue thanks if you want to take some steps before 10 a.m please do

01:02:48 take some steps before 10 a.m please do up to you

01:02:51 what did you make of that response

01:02:57 um [Music]

01:03:01 with everything i know and at that time i just thought it's up to me to do whatever i want right

01:03:08 so you didn't i i said did you take that email as essentially the go-ahead to take on the role of halo and set up the age oh no what i took that is it's up to you to do what you want so i actually did meet at

01:03:20 what you want so i actually did meet at eight o'clock and start doing everything right

01:03:29 do you consider that the hasg could have been set up on the 14th rather than on the morning of the 15th

01:03:40 i in i do um i do you do and looking back on it now do you think or do you agree that an hasg should have been set up on the 14th as opposed to the 15th

01:03:51 as opposed to the 15th oh yes i do um

01:03:55 um and when i read the the um the document it

01:03:59 it it was massive in terms of what that group does um but it did say it was like touch on rest centers but of course because what was happening in rest centers that group became

01:04:10 became basically sorting out the issues in the wrestling rights who did you consider was was leading on humanitarian issues on the 14th of june

01:04:21 humanitarian issues on the 14th of june before the establishment of the hasg on the 15th and indeed the confirmation of you as halo um

01:04:31 again it was siloed adults were leading on adults children were leading on children so they're humanitarian issues and tony redpath i thought was um looking at um humanitarian assistance board i thought

01:04:43 humanitarian assistance board i thought he was the one who was dealing with that

01:04:49 of course in my ignorance not knowing what the huge task if it was i didn't realize he was doing all that

01:04:57 now if we go to your first statement please page 7 paragraph 28.

01:05:11 uh you say that i stayed at the rbkc town hall

01:05:14 town hall the whole day and did not leave until after 2 200 hours that evening and that's the 14th of june if we look at this paragraph in the

01:05:25 if we look at this paragraph in the context of your wider statement and then you go on i remained in bec throughout the day

01:05:30 the day and supported any actions which needed doing and asking tony redpath if he needed help coordinating anything so was tony red path your principal point of contact

01:05:41 point of contact hit within the back during the 14th of june um

01:05:46 um no but he was a senior manager and director who was managing all of them and he wasn't in the back very often but um i

01:05:54 um i i had by that time um

01:05:57 um rightly or wrongly i'd start answering some phones in the back and i could see um

01:06:02 um that there was very little leadership there was amazing woman in there um rebecca blackburn doing an amazing job um but i could i could sense that um there were a lot of people a lot of

01:06:14 there were a lot of people a lot of phones going and there's a lot of people running around and it didn't seem i didn't know who was leading or what so i went and i remember asking tony redpath and stuart priestley

01:06:25 asking tony redpath and stuart priestley to sit in a room with me and i think i i think i took um i asked the director of children's to come with me did you have a meeting well it wasn't a meeting but it was like 10 minutes conversation yeah right yes

01:06:37 conversation yeah right yes during that conversation did did it become clear to you what the principal problems of the response were well i just said to both of them um you need you need to stop you need to

01:06:48 you need you need to stop you need to pause you need to um slow down you need to get some structure everyone's running around like rabbits in the headlights that's what i said please uh users we need to coordinate things that's what i said what was it

01:07:01 things that's what i said what was it that appeared to you to be lacking in coordination at that point

01:07:10 um

01:07:12 leadership

01:07:16 in what areas specifically

01:07:21 um well particularly in the back um and i've heard people say it it was a loud environment phones were going it needs to

01:07:32 needs to be like that maybe people are not used to it could be shocked um

01:07:37 um but i i saw people duplicating the you know they're asking questions about what's the phone number for this what's the address for this and there's 101 things going on and um out of social

01:07:49 things going on and um out of social care insurance was separate housing was separate

01:07:52 separate um the

01:07:54 um the i just didn't get the sense that we were fitting into any sort of plan um and when i and at the goal meeting you know people were saying things are okay and then in the back it just felt so many questions were coming in about

01:08:05 so many questions were coming in about rest centers and i just didn't get a sense of any plan at all or any structure and so i was asking him could we have could you pause and they were running in and people were running in

01:08:16 running in and people were running in and out and running around and people were talking together in groups and then running off and so it wasn't didn't feel coordinated right

01:08:30 now if we go um to paragraph 30 of this statement a little bit lower down you say this in addition to the crisis response i had to ensure that our resources were not being depleted to

01:08:42 our resources were not being depleted to the point which would prevent the execution of asc's day-to-day business elsewhere in the borough grenfell was absolutely a priority to be properly resourced in addition to maintaining routine care

01:08:53 routine care and looking ahead to the 15th of june did you consider at that point that there were sufficient resources available to rbkc for it to meet the humanitarian needs of those affected as well as its routine

01:09:06 those affected as well as its routine care commitments yeah

01:09:08 yeah and what gave you that impression um

01:09:12 um because every um they didn't have very many staff they didn't have very many managers in adult social care in rbc

01:09:20 rbc and the main one they had went to um their local office and was dealing with with uh grenfell so there was hardly any other managers around

01:09:31 other managers around right

01:09:34 and the purpose of that point was saying we had managers in westminster and in hamas within fulham and it was about that whole adult social care team

01:09:42 care team trying to support yes

01:09:47 yes let's then turn to the 15th of june

01:09:51 uh and uh you're referring your statement to a meeting with tony andrews at 8 00 a.m that morning that's at paragraph 32 if we just turn the page please head to page eight

01:10:06 where you i set that out and you say in the last sentence there we were waiting for the go-ahead from nicholas holgate so i take it you still hadn't heard back from him

01:10:17 from him that by 8 a.m on the morning of the 15th no and i don't think i actually ever heard anything it was just then in the goal meeting at whenever it was 10.

01:10:28 goal meeting at whenever it was 10. it was announced it we'll come to that do you remember having a conversation at any time that morning or indeed later in the day on the 15th with with somebody called mark sawyer

01:10:39 i definitely remember talking to mark sawyer

01:10:42 sawyer um yes it must have been on the well i met him i think he was there on the 15th yeah

01:10:46 yeah did he provide any advice to you or share any thoughts with you at that time

01:10:52 that time oh i can't remember um i know i said i don't know anyone i think i might have said to him i don't know people in rbkc and i do i need um some some support and i think he for the next day got in

01:11:03 i think he for the next day got in someone to take notes and something i forget what whether he actually spoke to me that day right

01:11:10 right i mean you you recall having a conversation with him on that day do you recall relaying to him your observations about what was happening in the back and the rabbit and headlights nature of the response that you had

01:11:22 nature of the response that you had observed the previous day actually i suppose it's coming to me i think um i spoke to mark sorry after a girl meeting maybe in the afternoon um i think that's maybe when i spoke to him because he was then introduced to

01:11:34 him because he was then introduced to someone who was from london gold right but we'll come to that yeah in due course can we start the day then or the day is gold 15th of june 10 a.m uh

01:11:46 day is gold 15th of june 10 a.m uh let's go to the meeting note rbk302807

01:11:51 before we go there could i just ask and you say in your statement in the morning you had a meeting about eight o'clock and started putting together the hsg and then you say you were waiting

01:12:03 hsg and then you say you were waiting for the go ahead for from mr hulgat hadn't you had that in that previous email um

01:12:11 um possibly but so i was doing it i mean when i say uh waiting for the go ahead officially um because he told you in the email to get on and do what you thought was appropriate he had um i

01:12:23 thought was appropriate he had um i suppose i was waiting to know that this person was coming in to do that role it's about the role i was getting on and doing the things that were needed to do all right thank you let's just go let's in the light of that let's just go back to see how you

01:12:35 let's just go back to see how you understood the email um can we go to rbk3058107

01:12:40 this is nicholas holgate's email to you at 2125

01:12:45 at 2125 and

01:12:46 and you you say to him in the third line in your email to him a few minutes before that i'm happy to start this tomorrow but we'll await our meeting with you in the morning

01:12:56 morning and his response is thanks if you want to take some steps before 10 a.m please do up to you so did you understand his email to you as saying here is formal concept confirmation of

01:13:08 here is formal concept confirmation of of the setting up of the humanitarian assistance steering group in the morning or did you did you read him as telling you that you could essentially take preparatory steps

01:13:19 could essentially take preparatory steps off your own bat but but nonetheless formal confirmation would have to await the meeting i think i i thought yeah get on you set up the meeting but whether i was a halo

01:13:31 up the meeting but whether i was a halo or not i think that's the thing that was still right in doubt right i followed mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes we can get into the meeting at 10 o'clock right yes good we stop there

01:13:42 o'clock right yes good we stop there really um well mr evans as you were told we have a break during the morning and this seems like a good time to have it so we'll stop there we'll resume please at half past 11 and on this and other occasions when

01:13:54 and on this and other occasions when there are breaks in your evidence please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room all right thank you very much together the usher please

01:14:12 thank you how fast you'll have them please

01:32:00 would you ask mr revlon to come back in please okay

01:32:15 all right mr ready to carry on yes thank you very much yes mr yes thank you mr chairman let's turn then to the rbkc gold group meeting at 10 a.m on the 15th of june 2017 the notes or minutes of

01:32:28 of june 2017 the notes or minutes of that are at rbk3028807

01:32:35 and we can see who attended you included there as you can see in the first chunk of names

01:32:45 was it then that you were formally appointed as the council's halo

01:32:51 um i think in my understanding it was right and i think the first meeting of that group was at 2 pm 1400 hours yes yes now um in

01:33:02 was at 2 pm 1400 hours yes yes now um in your first statement i don't think we need to go to it in your first statement page 8 paragraph 32 you say you had to wait for the go-ahead from nicholas holgate we saw that already before the break um

01:33:14 break um did you get the go-ahead formally did he say to you you are now the halo

01:33:19 the halo and

01:33:20 and i can't remember that because i just i think i just said i've set up the meeting um uh is there anything in these minutes does it say um yes and let's turn to page two

01:33:34 if you look at on at page two under other updates uh bullet point two sr to act as the council's halo and lead on the humanitarian response i.e continuing to support residents

01:33:45 i.e continuing to support residents evacuated from grenfell and other households was that the go-ahead yes right and did did mr holgate himself say that or was that a

01:33:56 a my recollection was he did and when you say was it the go-ahead i was already doing the prep this was actually telling everyone else that that was that was my role now staying with the minutes of the gold

01:34:07 now staying with the minutes of the gold group meeting at 10 a.m can we turn to page three and you can see at the foot of page three there which is under the major heading of key issues and actions there's something there's a headline or

01:34:19 there's something there's a headline or wording in bold reputational damage you see that yes and then underneath the first paragraph that there's a line that says sr and mf to nominate a key voluntary sector

01:34:31 to nominate a key voluntary sector liaison officer see that yes now what role was envisaged for that individual

01:34:42 my recollection from this i think i was given that task because i was going to set up the humanitarian assistance group so it was to go there and um and talk about it i i'm guessing that

01:34:53 and talk about it i i'm guessing that was um

01:34:55 was um the volunt well i'm trying to remember one of the roles of humanitarian assistance group is to make sure voluntary sector um are part of that um and we needed someone who could actually go and talk to the voluntary

01:35:06 actually go and talk to the voluntary sector

01:35:07 sector um and i think having tried to remember who that was then the only person in the council who took any role and that was tony redpath and he became that person

01:35:18 and he became that person and mf is martin fitzpatrick i think yes yes yes and he was rbkc's media communications team i think wasn't he do you remember that yes yes now you say in your second statement to

01:35:30 now you say in your second statement to paragraph 13 on page nine and again no need to see it unless we want to but that it was tony redpath who was appointed rbkc's voluntary sector lead shortly after this meeting

01:35:42 shortly after this meeting do you remember that uh yes um when we say it appointed um i had to ask grant who would be who who leads the voluntary sector and he he was so i said tony you'll have to come

01:35:52 come did you have conversations with him at that stage about that role no

01:35:59 no you didn't

01:36:01 d what was the nature of your discussions of any kind with tony redpath about engaging with the voluntary sector and the support that it was able to provide um when

01:36:12 was able to provide um when i don't know whether i had any conversations with him then about it but um

01:36:15 um i did have conversation with him about who was um which volunteer organizations were out there was he going did he have contacts with them where were the who is the people we should invite to the humanitarian assistance group

01:36:27 humanitarian assistance group um

01:36:29 um and he said he'd go and sort out the reps to come to the group my role was to get the reps to the group to have that discussion with them so they can part of that

01:36:39 response going forward

01:36:42 um

01:36:44 you say reps who the rep the representatives from the voluntary sector

01:36:49 sector right who he knew who could join the humanitarian assistance group i i follow now um within the voluntary sector there's the red cross uh i just want to go back to the red cross

01:37:00 i just want to go back to the red cross with you if we go to your first statement please page 8 paragraph 33

01:37:08 33 you say there i arrived at the back uh

01:37:14 uh i'm sorry i liaised with the red cross this is after your arrival at the beck on the 15th of june i liaised with the red cross to make sure that they and the council were working together efficiently

01:37:25 efficiently was it on the 15th of june that this liaison between you and the brc occurred um i think it was later in the day it wasn't that early but yes right

01:37:34 right what did you actually do well um

01:37:37 well um i actually um the red cross i think it might have been after the um humanitarian assistance group first meeting and i spoke after with the red cross to get their view on what was happening

01:37:49 their view on what was happening and what did they tell you um

01:37:53 um they had a lot of concerns about many things they did raise some of the humanities assistance group but they had concerns about um how the council weren't visible and their

01:38:04 and their managers weren't there right who did you speak to do you remember i think it was emma's emma emma sprague right

01:38:12 right and at that point 15th of june

01:38:18 did you understand well what did you understand the british red cross was doing

01:38:23 doing um

01:38:26 operationally they were doing an awful lot of things on the ground in terms of supporting rest centers um they had volunteers out looking at donations they were offering to be involved with

01:38:37 were offering to be involved with everything strategically emma was trying to i think emma was wanting to get more strategic overview of the whole picture including um the impact the numbers of people who are

01:38:49 the impact the numbers of people who are involved in that whole um impact assessment and what what links did you understand they were having with council staff um i didn't know what formal links they

01:39:00 um i didn't know what formal links they were having

01:39:03 i didn't know what former things they were having right on the ground there was speaking with people in the centers but i don't know whether operationally managerially they had any links in with the council and you say in your last answer but one that emma emma

01:39:15 your last answer but one that emma emma sprague was wanting to get more strategic overview of the whole picture did she tell you that um

01:39:23 um well

01:39:25 well in terms of anyone coming to that humanitarian assistance steering group meeting with any experience and understanding all the things one had to do

01:39:35 to do including the impact assessment the red cross and she were really helpful in helping me look at that overview um

01:39:44 um so it so i got a sense that they were following some sort of plan and as an understanding what should happen in crisis and i was wanting them to to work with the council closely and helping them did you think that it was the

01:39:55 them did you think that it was the council's plan they were following all their own no their i think was their own plan and what impression did you form even if it was only an impression about

01:40:04 about um how well the brc was integrating with rb casey's staff and and

01:40:10 and whether or not that was part of a holistic and organized strategy and i think the red cross were desperate for that but i don't think that was actually happening did she tell you that

01:40:21 actually happening did she tell you that and don't say anything to give you that impression i i i know i got the impression from things that were said i can't exactly remember the conversations and it those conversation continued for a while after right and i think in

01:40:32 a while after right and i think in general you found the brc british red cross helpful during the whole of your time as a halo really really helpful yeah now if we go to your second statement please page

01:40:43 to your second statement please page seven

01:40:44 seven paragraph 10.3

01:40:48 you say

01:40:52 uh at 11 42 on 15th of june 2017 i received a copy of the brc's impact assessment this had been sent into the back from matt hogan

01:41:03 been sent into the back from matt hogan london resilience manager and you exhibit it

01:41:09 did you read it at the time

01:41:16 i can't actually remember whether read it at the time it's we certainly had it at the um

01:41:21 at the um the group meeting right now you said in the previous paragraph paragraph 10.2 that brc provided information from staff working in the rest centers and with residents is that correct

01:41:36 sorry what paragraph i'm on 10.2 in the middle of your screen let me let me show you what you say you say i had a i had regular telephone and face-to-face contact with the brc and

01:41:47 face-to-face contact with the brc and they brought a lot of experience in a very calm manner providing information from staff working in the rest centers and with residents assisting with managing the rest centers and always providing suggestions and new ideas

01:42:02 on the basis that that's correct do you remember

01:42:05 remember were any key messages being fed back from the rest centers to you

01:42:10 to you via the brc

01:42:14 um

01:42:19 yeah they were they were saying that there was um people were very upset and

01:42:24 and council staff weren't very visible and

01:42:29 and there didn't seem to be any i can't they were saying things um like that this was in the afternoon of the 15th did you pass any of the messages that you were getting from the brc on to anybody else

01:42:40 getting from the brc on to anybody else at

01:42:40 at rbkc uh yes i know i um it was really concerning what they were saying and they didn't have any liaison in um

01:42:49 in um because i'm there's an assumption here that this role is in charge of everything and i was i was coordinating it and when i heard those things i went straight to tony redpath

01:43:00 tony redpath and said you need to talk to the british red cross they've got re you really and then you go to a goal meeting you get told senior managers are going out and things are happening right and so yeah i

01:43:11 things are happening right and so yeah i raised it with tony redpath at the time you took on or after the time you took on the halo roll to whom did you report at rbkc or to whom did you think you were supposed to report at our bkc in respect

01:43:25 supposed to report at our bkc in respect of the halo role um into the goal meeting i guess but

01:43:30 but not to any particular individual and no um

01:43:34 no um i didn't have anyone in rbkc um working with me i had to ask for some support

01:43:39 support turning to the operation of um the westway particularly were you aware of the brc operating a wristband system for residents and the bereaved so that they could come

01:43:51 and the bereaved so that they could come in

01:43:52 in and not specifically i have heard about it but at that time were you aware at the time on that day of any problems that that gave rise to not on that day

01:44:04 not on that day later

01:44:05 later only

01:44:06 only in survives heard some things in these hearings

01:44:10 hearings were you aware of any problems about people at from the walkway properties gaining access to the west way

01:44:19 um not at the time can we then turn to the hasg meeting on the 15th of june which you said would take place at 2pm and indeed did i think you chaired that group didn't you that

01:44:31 you chaired that group didn't you that group meeting yes do you know why it didn't take place until 2 p.m that day um

01:44:38 um i think because i was trying to think about that and i think it was partly because um there were so many other meetings and i think there was a 10 o'clock gold and then there was a

01:44:49 10 o'clock gold and then there was a some other meeting with health colleagues i think and so um i i left the meeting to be arranged um and the earliest time i was told was two o'clock if we go to your first statement please

01:45:02 if we go to your first statement please at page eight

01:45:05 this is your second statement we need to go back to your first statement page 8 paragraph 37 i summarize what you say there you say that the group was a multi-agency group which included representatives from

01:45:17 which included representatives from mental health the brc bereavement counsellors hospitals and faith groups among others that's correct is it i have i summarized that correctly yes now we know that just before the meeting

01:45:29 now we know that just before the meeting indeed of 1356 tony andrews circulated the agenda and the terms of reference can we look at those it's rbk3020255

01:45:43 there's the first page grenfell tower humanitarian assistance steering group terms of reference um

01:45:50 um and the agenda is there beneath it uh

01:45:55 uh page two is the terms of reference

01:46:00 um do you know who drafted that tennie andrews circulated it but you know who drafted it and i think this must be from the framework document right

01:46:11 framework document right and uh if you um it is it's drawn from annex one but do you know whether or did you have any input into into it at all or do you were you just given it

01:46:20 given it um this was a suggestion i know he just gave me the terms of reference yeah right now if we go then to page two we see it there and you can see that the key responsibilities are set out in paragraphs one through to seven there

01:46:33 paragraphs one through to seven there and i won't read them all to you but one of them is the first one is ensuring that the needs of affected people are understood and met and

01:46:43 and and then

01:46:44 and then particularly for

01:46:47 for initiating consultation with communities and individual to ensure the response is effective at five ensuring effective promotion of services to affected people and ensuring that effective pathways exist to enable

01:47:00 that effective pathways exist to enable people to find the support they require six is about sharing information and seven financial control i haven't read it all out to you but it's it's obviously all there for people to see

01:47:12 to see if we look then at tony andrews email that undercover of which this document was sent to you among others this is at

01:47:21 zero two rbk302025 four

01:47:25 as you can see that it's from him at 1356. copy to a large number of people including you is one of the last in fact the last copy e

01:47:36 the last copy e dear all for those of you dialing in today the agenda and terms of reference are here is this the first time you've seen the terms of reference for the hasg no i think tony and i met

01:47:47 no i think tony and i met quite a lot that morning i must have seen them before and now i read the framework so they would have been in that and we agreed the agenda together right i see

01:48:00 how how prepared did you feel to chair that meeting

01:48:06 um

01:48:09 i felt um that me that agenda was massive i felt um

01:48:16 um i could coordinate a meeting i could chair a meeting i could coordinate a meeting what was obvious to me was that um

01:48:26 um there was so much there and there was so much happening and that that group had it was just a massive agenda right

01:48:36 and let's go back then to the agenda uh which is page one i think of

01:48:45 of if we go back to page one of this document there it is um we can see the extent of the agenda there that you describe as massive and it has things in it so that everybody can see overview of welfare

01:48:56 everybody can see overview of welfare needs support to be provided community assistance center helpline management of donations and then

01:49:04 and then underneath that requirements for mutual aid from neighboring local authorities and other agencies was

01:49:10 was how do you discuss that specifically during the course of the morning with tony andrews no

01:49:19 no right

01:49:21 right what was the process whereby this agenda was put together between you and tony this is the agenda he said this is um again a framework document agenda i see so you just read the framework

01:49:32 i see so you just read the framework document

01:49:33 document noted the existence of a pro forma agenda like this and so you were ready for it when it came yeah tony said this is the agenda it might be massive you might not get onto all those things i see

01:49:51 we did sorry always but did you understand that in order to achieve the first of the key roles if we go to if we go to page two we can see the

01:50:03 to if we go to page two we can see the terms of reference

01:50:07 item one ensuring that the needs of affected people are understood and met did you understand that humanitarian impact assessments were required

01:50:18 were required to be completed by agencies in attendance at the hasg yes you did were there any problems in receiving those impact assessments promptly yes and what were those problems

01:50:30 and what were those problems um

01:50:31 um i can't remember in detail but i do remember

01:50:34 remember um we had to go out to several um people there about filling them in i don't think anyone had seen them that i think the thing the problem was the same people that were at that group

01:50:47 the same people that were at that group were doing all these other things and in terms of this group the status the uh authority of it the actual importance of it wasn't understood by everyone

01:50:58 understood by everyone were

01:51:01 when did you get the impact assessments um well they in um they had to be changed daily so i can't remember when they they were updated very regularly but i do know tony had to actually ask

01:51:13 but i do know tony had to actually ask lots of people lots of times right i see when they did come were they helpful in aiding you in the discharge of your responsibilities as halo

01:51:24 as halo to understand the needs of those affected

01:51:26 affected well um i had i had did i have two meetings as a halo um and um

01:51:34 and um it was

01:51:35 it was the one from british red cross gave numbers and issues that were going on but we didn't get the rest from the next day

01:51:41 day um

01:51:42 um and they were just updates of how many people had housing and stuff it was just quite overwhelming

01:51:50 now can i show you something from mike robinson who was the director of public health at westminster city council and he gave us a statement at rbk3035336

01:52:01 if we can go to that please there is the first page can we turn in it please to page 6 paragraph 29 this is what he says he says the p-h-i-t

01:52:13 he says the p-h-i-t sought to collate information about the survivors

01:52:17 survivors we requested lists from different actors involved in the recovery effort such as housing officers rest center managers and the police this was planned to be part of the hia

01:52:28 this was planned to be part of the hia we wanted the hasg stroke hrg to possess the most accurate information possible eva robernova drafted the report the following week i reviewed it and signed

01:52:39 following week i reviewed it and signed it off however before it was circulated we required the rbkc gold permission this led to some delay i presume because the gold group had concerns about releasing information the summary hia was released the following week we

01:52:51 was released the following week we commencing 19th june 2017 was it the case that there was a delay in the circulation of these impact assessments as he identifies there i have no knowledge of that because i

01:53:02 i have no knowledge of that because i wasn't um

01:53:04 wasn't um we tasked the public health at either to actually bring together all those impact assessments i was asking for this was a week later and i wasn't leading it i had no idea what they they came to the um

01:53:15 no idea what they they came to the um the ones that were done came to the humanitarian assistance group so they weren't delayed i see

01:53:21 i see she was she was collating them to get a better in assessment of what the knees were going forward that's the report she was collating for the following week and i don't know where that went i see so this was is this right these were for a

01:53:32 this was is this right these were for a more medium-term humanitarian response rather than the immediate short-term response and this is the meat well it's yes more because um people were filling these in

01:53:43 because um people were filling these in and she was looking she was collating them and it took her a long time in terms of getting them back from people but also she was collating them to give us what do we need going forward and what did you at the time this is after early afternoon on the 15th of

01:53:55 after early afternoon on the 15th of june what did you consider to be the most pressing issue for the hasg um well when i went into the meeting um in terms of

01:54:05 advice and discussions it was to um it was to set up um it was to look at whether we needed a humanitarian assistance center and that was um

01:54:16 and that was um something that would be set up the next day or the day after a bit longer term where you would have all the services that people might need in one place that was the ambition for

01:54:27 place that was the ambition for and that was i thought that was the main consideration of that right action is that how you saw your role as halo as well or did you see your role as halo as involving more immediate and pressing

01:54:39 involving more immediate and pressing humanitarian concerns and i didn't when i originally read it but because

01:54:48 all sorts of things weren't happening we were talking about setting up i i did see my role as doing that longer term that humanitarian assistance center that was what i was told had to come out of that meeting you know that's what we had

01:55:00 that meeting you know that's what we had to get on and do right um a bit more it's not medium it's like the two days later or something let's then look at um the minutes again please

01:55:11 the minutes again please and just i just want to ask you one or two questions about locations and rest centers again can we go please back to the h a s g minute at r b k four zeros one two one nine two zero

01:55:28 um

01:55:31 i say back to the minutes we haven't actually seen these yet but certainly back to the meeting um here is a set of the minutes humanitarian assistance student group hasg

01:55:41 hasg 15th june 2017 at 2pm sr welcome to everyone and asked ta to summarize the purpose of the humanitarian assistance steering group first do you remember who would you know

01:55:52 first do you remember who would you know who took these minutes yes it was my my pa your

01:55:58 pa and did you circulate the minutes to everybody who had come to the meeting yes

01:56:05 yes uh if we look at page one and we look at the third paragraph from the bottom of the page scrolling down to that please it says the council's efforts are at westway as

01:56:17 the council's efforts are at westway as a council-run rest center other informal rest centres may continue but they will not be resourced with council services why was the decision made not to support

01:56:28 why was the decision made not to support the other rest centers in the local community

01:56:35 um i i don't know when that decision was made i think there was discussion about how everyone needed to consolidate into one um

01:56:46 um rest center

01:56:49 and then when was that decision made um well

01:56:53 um well i don't know when it was made by the time we had this meeting i think tony redpath said this was this is what was happening right

01:57:01 were you aware at this time that places such as the rugby portobello trust and the clement james center were being accessed and used by many of the bereaved and

01:57:12 bereaved and survivors

01:57:17 yes yeah did you receive any feedback that those affected by the fire were not in fact accessing the services available at the west way um i think i remember and there was a

01:57:28 um i think i remember and there was a discussion about um not many people people were going to be directed to west way there weren't very many people there but they were the figures were getting higher and so people were going to westway yes and

01:57:39 people were going to westway yes and let's go to page three and we picked that up

01:57:43 page three second paragraph from the bottom

01:57:48 you are recorded as saying sr explained that the west's way rest center has not had huge numbers of residents but the numbers are increasing there is that what you're referring to

01:57:59 there is that what you're referring to yes yes

01:58:00 yes yes and if you also look at page four of the minute there's an issue raised it seems by emma

01:58:06 by emma bragg

01:58:08 you go to page four

01:58:17 uh it um it says on in the second paragraph

01:58:23 paragraph tg explained there might be others at this venue such as neighbors extended families who will be displaced for some time and those who want support more work is needed to clarify how all needs can be accommodated

01:58:37 and the next steps will involve ta helping to fight as tony andrews helping to find a venue and coordinate accordingly subgroups will be formed and ta is leading along with council red cross health partners and the services

01:58:48 cross health partners and the services community cohesion of faith groups are doing great things and should be involved red cross to contact faith groups

01:58:56 what was the source of the information that the west way as you put it the previous page had not had a huge number of residents but numbers were increasing

01:59:08 um it must have been someone from the meeting who was feeding that back to us

01:59:16 given what we've seen in the terms of reference

01:59:19 reference for the hasg which included initiating consultation with communities and individuals do you remember was there any action taken to determine the cause of the lower than expected numbers at the west way

01:59:33 um

01:59:38 at that time i think um people were because it had only just been

01:59:44 only just being allocated as the main rest center so i that's what people thought once people knew about it they would go there yes

01:59:54 yes although the need for one centralized official rest center appears to be recognized here do you remember whether

02:00:01 whether people discussed the need for support to the other locations i think in this in this conversation and these minutes because and this is why i said it's my

02:00:13 because and this is why i said it's my pa rather than someone who's an expert at recording these meetings this conversation and certainly about a ta tony andrews was about forming that one

02:00:24 one can that one center where council services and other services will be in so i think this this these emails are conflating maybe a rest center with a humanitarian

02:00:36 maybe a rest center with a humanitarian assistance center um and using the same vocabulary because what we were talking about there was a need for

02:00:43 need for something very soon where council services and other services could be to give support to people i see

02:00:51 i see this is talking about the community the humanitarian assistance center not the not rest centers per se um that's my that's my understanding of this discussion right was that an

02:01:02 this discussion right was that an understanding you had at the time

02:01:08 let me try this differently or pausing because it may be a difficult question at the time on the 15th of june did you understand there to be a distinction drawn in the london resilience

02:01:19 drawn in the london resilience arrangements between a rest center and a humanitarian assistance center i did you did and what was that distinction and the rest centers were the immediate ones set up by the beck

02:01:30 the immediate ones set up by the beck and staffed by recent managers and managed through gold and that's what was happening in my view this one was the one the role that the humanitarian assistance group

02:01:41 humanitarian assistance group which i was i was told and supported that we weren't dealing with the issues the immediate issues this was about setting something up for a day or two once a suitable venue

02:01:52 for a day or two once a suitable venue be found where people could come for all the advice and emotional support they needed in the one place

02:01:59 and is it your evidence and just assist assist us clarify it that that at the time on the 15th you you observed that there was some confusion in the minds of those rbkc

02:02:12 those rbkc between the rest center on the one hand and what you were intending to do by way of establishment of a humanitarian assistance center on the other

02:02:21 other i think there probably was um language was

02:02:24 was used for different things um and certainly my pa didn't understand it when she's writing this as well right i see

02:02:32 see and let's then examine together the numbers displaced can we go

02:02:37 can we go um

02:02:39 um to page one of these minutes please and look at the fourth paragraph down

02:02:48 uh now there you can see it says tr bec representative explain as tony redpath that the council efforts are with the residents who've been displaced to ensure that they are comfortable and have accommodation moving forward there

02:03:00 have accommodation moving forward there are 77 people in hotels with 25 people in the westway sports centre which is the only remaining council rest center council resources and police presence are at westway if council assistance is

02:03:11 are at westway if council assistance is needed then west way is where residents are to go there have been a mountain of donations transit lorries arriving from across the country this is a major logistical effort to get all sorted and

02:03:22 logistical effort to get all sorted and distributed and if you go over the page please to page two the third paragraph down on the content in the context of numbers uh it says a.g

02:03:33 uh it says a.g that could be amanda gill housing explained that there are 79 households in commercial local hotels there are under 30 households in temporary accommodation and some are in hospital

02:03:45 accommodation and some are in hospital hospitals as delayed discharges because of the accommodation problem

02:03:51 problem can you explain the differences in the information being provided the beck here saying that 77 people were in hotels and the housing department saying that there were 79 households in hotels plus 30

02:04:02 were 79 households in hotels plus 30 more households in temporary accommodation that's 109 households in all can you explain the discrepancy in the numbers no i can't you can't

02:04:15 no i can't you can't i mean would you agree uh

02:04:18 uh not just in in relation to the ordinary use of language but at the time there was a difference between persons and households households being more than one person usually

02:04:30 i don't know that's how a housing saw it they might have seen one individual could be in a household because they had a house was there a problem with terminology when the information was circulated about the number of those

02:04:41 circulated about the number of those adversely affected by the fire i think there was quite a lot of problem with terminology generally right now going back please to page two third paragraph down

02:04:53 third paragraph down again which starts ag as we've seen it goes on in the third line people temporarily evacuated from neighboring properties are not a priority for temporary accommodation unless they are vulnerable

02:05:06 accommodation unless they are vulnerable this is due to the shortage of temporary accommodation and the need to prioritize the residents of grenfell tower residents placed in hotels are visited to check their immediate practical needs people have lost their ids so we are

02:05:18 people have lost their ids so we are ensuring they have money and other needs met

02:05:22 was it first of all was it was it the case that those evacuated from neighboring properties so the walkways uh are were not a priority for temporary accommodation unless they were

02:05:33 accommodation unless they were vulnerable is that is that right well i only know that because it's written here right but you don't remember a separate discussion about it no i wouldn't have been party to a separate discussion about the housing issues right

02:05:46 issues right and what was the information that you received about the number of evacuated persons from neighboring properties who were affected by the fire what kind of numbers are we dealing with do you remember um

02:05:57 um only from these these notes well on the notes if you go

02:06:02 if you go three paragraphs on if we scroll down please it says the plan you see it says the plan is to accommodate residents as locally as possible

02:06:12 possible and then it goes on uh there are 450 people in cordoned off area who are still awaiting details of when they are allowed back into their homes

02:06:22 homes a lot of utilities to supply heating and water are under grenfell which have been affected it will take two weeks or longer for housing is sorted the red cross explained that the air hotel have offered free accommodation

02:06:35 hotel have offered free accommodation now the

02:06:36 now the do you remember the cordoned off area included homes on grenfell walk hearst way walk testerton walk barond and walk and tread gold house do you remember that

02:06:47 that well i know those names would you agree that that was a substantial number of people evacuated who were not placed in hotel or contemporary accommodation at that stage yes yes

02:07:02 and it looks as if it's from this minute that at that stage it was well known that there were problems with the loss of utilities such as heating and water supply

02:07:10 supply yes what was the expectation in the light of those facts about what was going to happen to those evacuees from the cordoned off area in the forthcoming days well

02:07:21 well this is the first meeting and this is an update from every aspect of people who came to that meeting this was an update after this as a consequence of this meeting we set up subgroups and one of what which was housing and and each of

02:07:34 what which was housing and and each of those subgroups it's not really reflected in here each of those subgroups was to take these issues and to deal with them and come back and report back what they're going on doing on everything and the housing group

02:07:46 on everything and the housing group um

02:07:48 um we're taking forward these things right

02:07:52 right but what was the expectation i just want to make sure i didn't answer my question what did you expect would happen to the evacuees from the evacuees from the cordoned off area particularly given the numbers that are

02:08:04 particularly given the numbers that are being discussed well at that time i didn't have an expectation i was i was the housing subgroup were going to have to have a look at that and gold command were looking at that as well i see

02:08:15 were looking at that as well i see so did you think that that lay outside your role as halo um in terms of me doing anything about that immediately um what we were showing is this is a huge issue that's happening that and we need to set up a test group

02:08:27 that and we need to set up a test group now so that test group was set up then right and to take forward these things

02:08:33 and to report back now the minute continues as we've seen it

02:08:41 it if you go back up the screen um

02:08:46 um you can see in the last two lines of the of the paragraph that starts ag housing the residents were placed in hotels and had lost their ids um were you satisfied at that stage that

02:08:58 um were you satisfied at that stage that the needs the humanitarian needs of those in hotels were being met

02:09:06 well no they they weren't because they still needed they needed so much more and

02:09:12 and did that come did there come a time when that changed

02:09:17 um you meet are we just talking about the first three door you mean in the first three days yes well

02:09:26 well you start on the 15th of june yeah with the observation that um there are residents in hotels who needed money and other needs met because they not at least lost their id's did

02:09:38 they not at least lost their id's did that did that improve in the coming days um well

02:09:41 um well and the

02:09:43 and the i think the action from this was the housing staff where um again this this was a huge issue with the housing subgroup the housing staff were going to visit people and making sure they had the money and their needs met that's

02:09:54 the money and their needs met that's what that was the action obviously that was too overwhelming so by the saturday or the sunday we asked when we when other resources kicked in we got key workers

02:10:04 workers right and i i don't know how much improved after that because there's been mixed views of that but

02:10:13 and you say it was over oh too overwhelming just just help me a little bit more what was overwhelming about it what was i when i said that was it yes

02:10:24 what was i when i said that was it yes you said in the last answer um that that um

02:10:29 um the housing staff were going to visit people and making sure they had the money and their needs met that was the action obviously that was too overwhelming what was the problem um

02:10:39 um well

02:10:41 well the

02:10:42 the i don't know how many housing staff um where they whether they knew where people were what hotels they were in they did have lists of that but they they said they had problems uh finding people in the hotels and they said

02:10:54 people in the hotels and they said people weren't there and i don't know how um i don't know how they manage that process

02:11:00 process but after that and there might not have been enough of them

02:11:05 them um

02:11:06 um this sounds you know it's like um everyone's got a certain task to do it it wasn't like that people were were just

02:11:13 were just running around and trying their best

02:11:18 i'm sure you've got um the housing lead talking tomorrow i don't know exactly what they did and if we go on to page three again and look at the sixth paragraph this time in this minute

02:11:33 uh it's about the middle of your screen

02:11:39 well it's two thirds of the way down your screen it says there is a need agree ways of sharing information so that residents can be tracked and their needs met there is a governmental group looking at this

02:11:50 looking at this who is the government who was the governmental group referred to here who was looking at this well this would have been said by um either tony redpath or someone we had at that meeting um from central government

02:12:01 that meeting um from central government and my pa hasn't put the detail down so i can't remember what

02:12:08 this is indicative of why you need logists and people taking notes that understand the process did you expect or had you expected that a procedure for sharing information

02:12:20 a procedure for sharing information should have been put in place before the fire so that this discussion wouldn't have to happen after the fire

02:12:31 sorry sharing information between before the fire it says there is a need to agree ways of sharing information so that residents can be tracked and their needs met and

02:12:42 can be tracked and their needs met and let me try it slightly differently did did you

02:12:45 did you expect that there would be an already established mechanism for sharing information such as that for that purpose

02:12:56 um

02:12:58 i know we shared information so in terms of my own area adults social care information with health so we had combined records and we would known people who'd been in hopefully who'd

02:13:09 people who'd been in hopefully who'd been in housing need other than that i don't know you don't know

02:13:13 know do you know what steps were taken after this meeting to agree on a way of sharing information as i identified there in the minute no

02:13:26 now the minutes touch on the topic of donations that from the public and we've seen reference here to the mountain of donations with transit lorries arriving from across the country we saw that on page one

02:13:37 page one what impact do you recall the volume of donations had if any on rbc's activities and the response

02:13:48 um

02:13:51 well they hardly had anyone to deal with them so again it was um there were so many of them and we we did a debbie morris became the person again in this in the

02:14:02 became the person again in this in the subgroup who was to take that forward um but there were very few staff to be able to deal with it um you know there were not enough stuff to deal with there's so many donations outside right does that tell us that

02:14:14 outside right does that tell us that there was no pre-existing plan to deal with donations and their distribution um well there probably was something in the plan but in reality it didn't right it didn't materialize they say in the plan but there was right so whatever is

02:14:26 plan but there was right so whatever is this right whatever there was it didn't materialize it didn't materialize both because i i there was so many but also i don't know whether there was a designated lead to do that

02:14:39 do that or they had a preparedness for that right

02:14:43 right now um if if we stick with paige stick with the minutes and go to page four please third paragraph from the bottom we can see it says mr

02:14:54 we can see it says mr you see it says mr to lead the health and well-being subgroup which will include asc children's services and mental health mr to feedback to hab lp and jw to co-chair the subgroup with

02:15:06 lp and jw to co-chair the subgroup with mr

02:15:09 mr now um

02:15:10 now um mr is michael robinson yes yes and he was the director of public health at westminster city council yes yes and uh if we look at his statement in rbk3035336

02:15:23 if you go please to page

02:15:28 page five

02:15:30 five paragraph 25 at the foot of that page four lines up from the bottom of page five um he says uh

02:15:45 he says uh um you need to go to page six actually for for the bit i want uh

02:15:54 uh we agreed

02:16:00 uh we four lines up we concluded that there was little point of duplicating efforts and resources we agreed that the hrg would take the lead and we would convene our own subgroup if necessary later on i cannot recall how many hasg

02:16:12 later on i cannot recall how many hasg meetings i attended but i was present at the initial meetings on 15th and 16th of june

02:16:17 june you see that um and then he goes on to say

02:16:22 to say uh in the next paragraph he'd uh he attended the first meeting on 15th of june thereafter cynthia folerin took the lead and reported to me discussions were fed back

02:16:36 and then he says at paragraph 27 the dph did not have power to mobilize any further resources on the ground we ourselves did not deliver any services to the community instead

02:16:47 services to the community instead rbkc entered into contracts with the local nhs trusts such as the clch to deliver services throughout the first week we were in contact with the clch to ensure that those services were provided

02:16:59 ensure that those services were provided properly

02:17:00 properly for instance we knew there would be many traumatized children and so we ensured that our health visitors and school nurses would prioritize work in the facility

02:17:08 facility is that

02:17:09 is that is that correct does that correspond with your own recollection

02:17:15 um yes when he says entered into contracts

02:17:18 contracts um

02:17:20 um if he's talking about this response they were part of that uh response partners anyway so they would have done it without a contract but yes yes now if we go back to the minutes then at page two there's a reference there in the last

02:17:32 there's a reference there in the last paragraph on page two

02:17:38 to

02:17:40 um the manchester stepped pathway as you can see there from the second line yes uh could you explain what that was

02:17:51 what that was um i can't in detail but basically this is um about saying what what is the root for people who've been traumatized or through

02:18:00 through um something like this and it was saying the first two days or three weeks this happens five weeks six weeks later this happens then you do an assessment

02:18:11 this happens then you do an assessment and it goes through different stages of what sort of um response in terms of mental health support you should give survivors right now and

02:18:21 now and in relation to publicizing those services at the bottom of page two just a little lower down you can see it says nhs have a general leaflet and a consistent message is needed from health

02:18:32 consistent message is needed from health and other partners that can be used this will be very helpful so this can be advertised

02:18:41 can you help us with what was envisaged with the entry if you go to the top of page three you can see there

02:18:52 you can see there uh mr director of public health to promote communications and work with the council communications with the leaflets psychology services are aware of this so we'll link into those they're working with what was it what was envisaged

02:19:04 with what was it what was envisaged um this was about uh letting people know in wherever they were um that there was a range of help they could access and the the details of it and the

02:19:15 access and the the details of it and the phone numbers right now did you know that the following day 16th of june the nhs partners were asking for the council's website to be updated so that people affected by the grenfell either directly or indirectly

02:19:28 grenfell either directly or indirectly and in need of mental health support or or psychological therapy could call a dedicated nhs response line i i don't

02:19:36 i i don't recall you don't really do anything about that i know but this would have been part of this to make sure it was on the website that they would have been doing that's part of this these actions do you know who was coordinating that

02:19:47 do you know who was coordinating that effort with rbkc within rbkc well either within or with it would have been someone it would have been maybe louise proctor or someone from um ccg were you did you know anything about

02:19:58 were you did you know anything about that at this time it's discussed here at the meeting but did you know anything about it beyond the proposal set out here i can't remember no right sticking with them with the topic of

02:20:09 sticking with them with the topic of communications um we've seen that one of the matters set out in the terms of reference for the hasg

02:20:16 the hasg was to ensure effective promotion of services to affecting affected people and ensuring that effective pathways exist to enable people to find the support they require we saw that as one

02:20:27 support they require we saw that as one of the terms of reference were communications to those affected by the fire identified as a problem at this meeting do you remember

02:20:39 i can't remember um but i do know um communications were a problem right and what aspect of communications do you

02:20:50 and what aspect of communications do you remember being a problem um things like staff on the front on the ground um maybe not always knowing how to access cash or or or

02:21:01 knowing how to access cash or or or where to refer people and where people should go to for advice um about loved ones there were those sorts of things a range of those and who was reporting that back to you

02:21:13 was reporting that back to you um i don't know whether anyone said at this meeting but certainly um i must have got it from gold or from other places let's see if we can pin this down a bit

02:21:25 let's see if we can pin this down a bit more

02:21:26 more closely can we go to page five of this minute please top of the page top of your screen a communication subgroup will be needed criticism

02:21:37 subgroup will be needed criticism and questions have been asked around the communications sr is going to gold meeting now so communications will be an integral part of the discussions just looking at that does it provoke a

02:21:49 just looking at that does it provoke a recollection what were the criticisms and questions asked around communications um

02:21:56 well what i've said and um

02:22:01 people didn't know where to go and people weren't being told what was happening

02:22:05 happening um

02:22:06 um generally and people on the ground the staff on the ground weren't informed now uh

02:22:13 now uh do do you remember taking that to rbkc gold at the next gold meeting i don't remember um going to goal but i do remember going to um tony redpath and um

02:22:24 remember going to um tony redpath and um because he managed all the internal services

02:22:27 services and asking him what was going on about comms and we needed to get a message out and i think i did mention it at gold i don't think it's in the minutes but i did mention it um and he told me that um

02:22:38 did mention it um and he told me that um the media and comms were doing something i i don't know whether that's in the um in the goal meeting we'll come to the gold meeting minutes in a moment

02:22:50 and look at it before we do before let's um look at some other people's evidence about the impressions they got about this meeting the aha the first hasg meeting

02:23:01 the aha the first hasg meeting um first emma sprague who attended i think brc6050

02:23:08 is her statement and if we go please in it to page 15 paragraph 63 she says

02:23:22 in the fourth line down there my impression of this meeting was that it could perhaps have been better organized though i understood the extremely stressful and distressing situation everyone was involved in especially the

02:23:33 everyone was involved in especially the council staff the meeting room was quite small there were substantial numbers of individuals packed in london resilience groups supported the meeting

02:23:42 now first of all her impressions of the meeting

02:23:47 meeting what is your what do you say about that do you agree

02:23:51 and yeah i agree with him and she says at paragraph 65 there was provision about the there was discussion about the provision of support and the role roles different organizations at the

02:24:03 roles different organizations at the site were performing in an attempt to identify gaps in the services being provided topics raised included numbers of households affected accommodation and welfare needs at this stage there was still no confirmation of numbers

02:24:14 still no confirmation of numbers affected nor confirmation of where all the survivors were located whether in temporary accommodation or rest centers do you agree with that yes you do would you have been assisted by representatives from the voluntary

02:24:25 representatives from the voluntary organizations providing support at the unofficial rest centers being in attendance at this meeting

02:24:33 um i don't think they were in attendance i

02:24:37 i i don't think we had a representative we might have had someone from the churches who was right were any efforts made do you remember to try to identify those organizations and

02:24:48 try to identify those organizations and invite them to this meeting well that was a i actually asked tony redpath to do that

02:24:54 do that yes and indeed it's in the fred it's in the i think in the framework document is that where you got the idea from yes um and that came from the um the conversation had with him about being the voluntary sector lead yes

02:25:06 the voluntary sector lead yes and let's then turn to the rbkc gold meeting

02:25:10 meeting in the afternoon of the 15th of june 2017

02:25:13 2017 at 15 30.

02:25:16 at 15 30. minutes are at rbk401874 please first

02:25:22 first attendees we can see that you were in attendance there

02:25:28 yes yes and as was tony redpath and others uh if we stick with page one and look at the fourth bullet point down which says if the cordon is not lifted

02:25:40 which says if the cordon is not lifted it says if the cordon is not lifted then have over 800 people to find places we'll need to seek help from government do you remember where the number of 800 came from

02:25:51 came from no

02:25:53 no no those numbers were as we it is obvious much greater than the 450 people that had been noted in your meeting of the hasg some 90 minutes earlier are you able to explain the difference

02:26:05 able to explain the difference i'm not

02:26:06 i'm not did you query the numbers at the time no i didn't um

02:26:13 i didn't was it was it of interest to you to know even roughly how how many people were adversely affected by the fire which would be requiring or who would be requiring humanitarian assistance or some kind of help from

02:26:24 assistance or some kind of help from rbkc

02:26:26 rbkc uh i would probably have asked after it i didn't ask at the time at this goal meeting right why is that um i've um the girl me i i just been from um had i just had our meeting yet

02:26:38 from um had i just had our meeting yet we just had the housing and the humanitarian assistance steering group meeting and i just come into this and i just felt um

02:26:51 there wasn't every meeting was doing the same thing every meeting was just hearing these same things and

02:26:57 and i didn't know where the role i had fitted in with this and how i could possibly take all those things forward and understand everything at that time um

02:27:07 um and

02:27:08 and i didn't even you know think to ask about those two figures no because i was really concentrating on a center and getting some things moving specifically so i didn't i didn't ask

02:27:20 specifically so i didn't i didn't ask about the difference right you didn't did did you have confidence in the accuracy of the information being provided given the discrepancy and the numbers

02:27:28 numbers that are being thrown around you didn't have any comp what did you understand by the reference to the need to seek help from the government

02:27:36 um i don't know what that's referring to was there any discussion at that point 3 30 in the afternoon of the 15th of june

02:27:46 june regarding the activation of the gold protocol for london local authority gold llag

02:27:52 llag i i wasn't i didn't hear anything right were you aware of the structure and the ability to um

02:28:01 um invoke london gold resolution um i'm not sure whether specifically but um i was i i didn't know the council had to ask i didn't know the specifics of that

02:28:13 didn't know the specifics of that if we go to page three of this document these minutes of this meeting second bullet point down

02:28:23 uh or first bullet point on the page cc feedback that comms was not seen to be working and that the council was not visible enough schools are not able to get in touch with the press office and needs to help

02:28:35 with the press office and needs to help need help to manage comms comm's team can draft an internal memo for staff from the leader do you know who raised that at the meeting yeah that's claire chamberlain claire chamberlain and what was done do you

02:28:46 chamberlain and what was done do you know

02:28:47 know about that um i think at that time as well um some of us said there are other issues there are real issues with comms and there was comms person there

02:28:56 and so who was supposed to take that forward right

02:29:06 and if we if we go please to uh page

02:29:11 uh page uh we'll stick with this page and look at the next item down the second item down humanitarian assistance steering group update you give the report there yes yes and in the second bullet point you report that you'd made a request to

02:29:23 you report that you'd made a request to beck for a full-time administer support officer and a key person who knows networks and contacts in council did you receive that support

02:29:34 um this is where i think mark sawyer comes in for a bit of that this question because he came up to me afterwards and asked me

02:29:42 asked me what the issues were the next morning there was someone that he sent along to start taking the notes and being an administrative support who understood all the processes i didn't

02:29:53 understood all the processes i didn't get a key person who knows network contacts in council so i had to just go and ask anyone who i could what to do about this and what to do right we may come to that but um don't just show you the email just to

02:30:04 don't just show you the email just to see if we can put this in its context rbk3027850

02:30:11 this is an email almost exactly a day later 16th of june since you refer to it and there's an email from toby gould at london fire

02:30:22 at london fire to deborah collins and you deborah sue i took a decision to seek mutual aid from other local authorities to provide secretariat support around the hasg meetings over the weekend we needed to put at the request out asap

02:30:35 we needed to put at the request out asap to have a better chance of a positive response i didn't think you'd object but please shout of any problems etc and then he goes on i'll be here but we'll need that function but we are running short on our own staff and our

02:30:46 running short on our own staff and our or our volunteers to support if our bkc work can assist it would be very useful to have someone around who can also provide contact details etc etc is that is that what you're referring to

02:30:59 is that is that what you're referring to yes yes thank you and then go back if we come to the minute please rbk401874 page three under the heading of forward

02:31:10 page three under the heading of forward look after your report from the hasg and the mass fat steering group forward like internal staffing uh and it's

02:31:22 uh and it's nna said he's that's nick austin said that the wsc that's westway support center need a senior manager and a rest center manager at wsc

02:31:35 manager at wsc beck working on rota for rest center manager

02:31:38 manager senior officers thin on ground but we'll think about this

02:31:44 two things first was that a matter of concern to you or others at the meeting when i say that that what i mean is the staffing problem identified there

02:31:56 staffing problem identified there well i think it was raised as a concern and then someone's going to action it i don't know whether it was then i said i'm not in that meeting but i said i'll go i was told not to yeah right now this is obviously in the dis in the context i say obviously do you remember

02:32:09 context i say obviously do you remember that whether this was in the context of the westway center being a rest center or whether it was in its context of being a humanitarian assistance center it was as

02:32:21 humanitarian assistance center it was as a rest center what was the wsc at this point was it a rest center it was a rest center and it wasn't going to be at that time no one envisaged it would be the longer term it turned out to

02:32:32 be the longer term it turned out to become the longer term

02:32:35 and when did discussions about wsc becoming the longer term humanitarian assistance center's start well i think um there was an action that um we needed one so it was that was

02:32:47 um we needed one so it was that was obvious and then someone from rbkc i forget it was in charge of buildings he was tasked with finding well with me he was tasked with finding a suitable premises um that could be

02:32:58 premises um that could be um

02:33:00 um a longer term medium term

02:33:04 and that was started on the friday thursday or friday maybe thursday yes and i think we come back to that in due course in your evidence so we'll park that for the moment because i just want to i just want to ask you a question or two about help lines for residents if we

02:33:16 two about help lines for residents if we go back a page please in these minutes to page two you can see on page two under the second bullet point it says red cross can help set up a helpline kb and sr to take

02:33:28 set up a helpline kb and sr to take forward

02:33:30 forward now in your second statement you say paragraph 11.1 on page 8 that you wanted to see whether it was possible to run a dedicated joint helpline with the brc

02:33:41 helpline with the brc why did you consider a joint helpline in particular was needed i don't think that was my advice and i think um

02:33:49 think um red cross i think wanted um the council i think to do a helpline red cross had one up and running and i think they advised that you could join them both

02:34:01 advised that you could join them both together so i tried to find someone in the council who will be able to do that

02:34:07 was that was the problem that at this point in the absence of a dedicated response helpline the rbkc's housing line was what was being publicized as the number

02:34:18 the number to call

02:34:21 i think it might have been

02:34:25 i can't well let's just put this in remember

02:34:28 remember context if we can

02:34:33 mol 6014

02:34:39 this is the scg

02:34:43 scg 0830 meeting on the 14th of june so this is a day before picking it up at page 3 paragraph 6.

02:34:59 uh if you look uh

02:35:04 look uh at um

02:35:06 at um the heading local authorities provided an update

02:35:09 an update third bullet point rbkc housing line is available for displaced people was that what you understood was the position

02:35:18 position going into the 15th of june and remaining the position as at

02:35:24 as at 15 30 on the 15th of june yes yes

02:35:28 yes yes [Music]

02:35:30 [Music] now you i think then liaised with rbkc customer services during the evening of the 15th of june about setting up a helpline with the support of the red cross is that right yes

02:35:41 yes and he raised that again i think the next day 16th of june at the second hasg meeting we can see that

02:35:52 at eight rbk rbk402040

02:35:59 page one now we've jumped ahead to the next day but just pursuing this helpline question under three chair it says clarify with rbkc gold whether the

02:36:11 says clarify with rbkc gold whether the helpline emotional support access to funds links to other services available for this incident should be run by rbkc or the brc brc helpline is up and running 8am to

02:36:23 brc helpline is up and running 8am to 8pm

02:36:29 and then it goes on rbkcrb sorry brc rbkc mr westbrook stroke call center to consider linking helpline to a hunt group also staffed by

02:36:40 helpline to a hunt group also staffed by rbkc

02:36:42 rbkc um first

02:36:44 um first what was a hunt group do you know i think where you chase a call goes to someone else directly right chase and what was the outcome of those inquiries that are identified in that box there i think the issue here

02:36:56 in that box there i think the issue here was um

02:36:59 was um british red cross were taking had a call up and helped out over running but the council weren't providing them with the information you know they didn't feel it was all their responsibility to have the helpline

02:37:10 responsibility to have the helpline and so they they wanted us to talk with rbkc about it and um the outcome of this i think was that um

02:37:19 that um there were some problems doing the join up um

02:37:24 um and so i think arby casey said they could set one up um

02:37:29 um but they took a while to do it and i didn't think um i wanted to ask the british red cross what they thought about it so i went back to right

02:37:38 now i think you say in your second statement and it's paragraph 111 that on reflection you don't think you ever managed to coordinate the two helplines before london gold stepped in

02:37:50 helplines before london gold stepped in no because this was this was friday lunchtime and they said yes friday afternoon

02:37:55 afternoon yes would it have helped to have had a dedicated helpline i'm sure it would as quickly as possible i'm sure it would

02:38:03 and was it the position so far as you recall it that there were these two helplines operating separately and independently rbkc's housing line on the one hand and the british red cross helpline on the other

02:38:15 helpline on the other yes i think so right

02:38:25 now i think it's right that the helpline that was eventually used was the phone number that had been set up by the british red cross in response to the manchester arena incident which had occurred on the 22nd of may 2017. is that your recollection

02:38:37 2017. is that your recollection immediately it was i don't know whether that stayed that way but yet yes

02:38:44 and do you remember that on the 17th of june that's the saturday there was a brief meeting of the continuity sorry the community assistance center the cac subgroup at

02:38:56 assistance center the cac subgroup at one o'clock and tony andrews circulated an action which was that um a helpline number needs to be published immediately is that something you recall i wasn't there you weren't there but you

02:39:07 i wasn't there you weren't there but you recall the event do you recall the fact yeah you do and after that was set up were there problems still relating to the number not being published or did those disappear

02:39:18 published or did those disappear there were so many things in the in the days after in um when we were in westminster that we had to deal with and i'm sure

02:39:26 i'm sure the helpline would have been the publication the publicity around the helpline would have been one of them i'm sure we were dealing with that yeah in fact the records show that the brc british red cross helpline was eventually set up on the 16th of june the friday

02:39:38 the 16th of june the friday did any problems arise while it was active do you remember

02:39:43 um i think there were some questions about the information that the staff had to hand what they knew then turn to the 16th of june and start

02:39:54 then turn to the 16th of june and start with the gold the rbkc gold meeting on that day at 10 o'clock um you say that you attended that meeting that's paragraph 41 of your first statement at page nine

02:40:07 41 of your first statement at page nine we don't need to see that but that's right is it you attended yes yes

02:40:13 yes yes now you mentioned in your statement that john baradel was present at that meeting you say that at paragraph 41 that he was the town clerk at the city of london and also the chair of the

02:40:26 of london and also the chair of the local authorities panel what did you understand his role to be in this incident i didn't know at that time i just knew we had some people who weren't i hadn't

02:40:37 we had some people who weren't i hadn't been to previous meetings i had hoped they were there to um

02:40:43 to um help

02:40:44 help right

02:40:47 now let's get your statement then at page nine first statement page nine paragraph forty one

02:41:03 uh you uh you say there in the middle i think nicholas holgate

02:41:11 chaired the meeting the next meeting was at 1500 hours and at the end of the meeting john baradel said that the next meeting was by invitation only although it was never expressly said from this i took it to mean that london

02:41:22 from this i took it to mean that london resilience were now taking over control london resilience is there to provide support and mutual aid in a crisis situation

02:41:31 situation um

02:41:32 um first was it said

02:41:36 said or did what is what you remember john baradel saying that the next meeting was by invitation something that he said at the 10 o'clock meeting uh or at the end of the 1500 hours

02:41:47 uh or at the end of the 1500 hours meeting

02:41:49 meeting and my recollection is the end of the 1500 hours i see right

02:41:55 right and i think you you say you took it to mean that london resilience was now taking over control as you say um was there a discussion about london local authority gold taking

02:42:07 about london local authority gold taking over during the ten o'clock meeting

02:42:11 in my recollection i don't remember anything like that i just thought we had some people sitting there

02:42:20 um what do you mean some people well um people i didn't know who were in this meeting and they didn't say anything about um they may have been introduced as london gold but i had no recollection there was any

02:42:31 but i had no recollection there was any talk about them taking over right let's go to rbk3020703

02:42:44 these are the minutes of the 10 o'clock meeting on the 16th of june 2017. you could see who was present you were present uh as was nicholas holgate and and a

02:42:55 uh as was nicholas holgate and and a list of others

02:42:59 but you can also see also in attendance john baradel you see that yes and also alex woodman lnac and mark sawyer too

02:43:10 and mark sawyer too uh now um if we go please in that to page four

02:43:15 page four you'll see a heading london local authority gold about a third of the way down your screen and it says jb outlined what he and his team would be doing which is

02:43:26 and his team would be doing which is primarily to complement what we are doing and give us some respite he praised the council for managing on their own for so long but now is the time to get in help and support do you

02:43:37 time to get in help and support do you remember that i can't remember it as such but i didn't read that as taking over or anything like that right well we may come back to that in a moment but

02:43:49 moment but you can see sticking with the minute on page three if we go back please under

02:43:57 uh under item five key issues and strategic decisions

02:44:03 decisions it says humanitarian assistance including emergency rest center community assistance center offers of accommodation it says there tr assisting in identifying properties for a community

02:44:15 identifying properties for a community assistance center needs space with furniture barriers and private rooms with provision to speak to liaison officers

02:44:23 officers you see that yes um what was or what did you understand to be a community assistance center this is i think he's doing this because we sent

02:44:34 i think he's doing this because we sent he's a voluntary sector person and he's reporting back this is what i'm calling the humanitarian assistance um center it's the same thing it was a long-term thing that the group i was dealing with was looking at

02:44:47 right so you read this or you is this right you understood community assistance center to be the same thing as a humanitarian assistance center yes

02:44:59 um right can i can i just show you then rbk3013294

02:45:10 now this is the major incident procedure manual published by l e slp

02:45:17 are you familiar with this.wall were you familiar with this document at the time no you weren't uh let's go to page 36 paragraph 9.11.

02:45:31 and this is under the heading community assistance center and it says the local authority may decide to establish a community assistance center cac to undertake a

02:45:42 assistance center cac to undertake a detailed community impact assessment to provide advice and support to affected people and to support the recovery of the community in a local setting community assistance centers may be considered particularly where

02:45:54 be considered particularly where humanitarian assistance center has not been activated so

02:45:59 so um it did you know that a community assistance center was not the same as a humanitarian assistance center in fact was what would happen where you didn't have a

02:46:10 happen where you didn't have a humanitarian assistance center i know that in terms of the work that was happening in rbkc those two phrases were interchangeable um

02:46:21 um but for me reading this they're actually they're the same thing um we were calling it at one point even in our humanitarian assistance group it was called the cac meeting and then it changed the h.a

02:46:33 changed the h.a c meeting but in terms of what they were doing and what they were going to provide and what they needed in there it was exactly the same thing right now at this point 10 a.m 16th of

02:46:44 right now at this point 10 a.m 16th of june 2017 what was the west waste sports center classified as sorry what was the day the friday yes we're on the friday and we're at 10 o'clock i still think that was a rest center right

02:46:56 was a rest center right and how advanced were efforts to locate a suitable location for a community assistance center or if you like a humanitarian assistance center and there were people in the council

02:47:07 and there were people in the council tasked with looking at all their accommodation and i know that i forget his name but the the person who's in charge of it came back to us um to tony andrews who was looking at this with him to say he couldn't find any uh he found

02:47:19 to say he couldn't find any uh he found one place which was just counted by by everyone because it was it wasn't in the area

02:47:24 area um

02:47:25 um and then um we put together some sort of speck about what it should be and the british cross put together a list of things they needed and then he had a

02:47:36 things they needed and then he had a better specification to go and apparently look for accommodation he said he couldn't find any so i just remember the conversations about the west way where look um we've got the west way um and

02:47:48 look um we've got the west way um and apparently i can't recall but the rest we wanted to open as a leisure center again on the monday so the conversations where you can't close the west way it needs to become it needs to stay open and it needs to become this center even initially for

02:48:01 become this center even initially for the first few days or weeks until we find some proper place i see now we can see in this minute if we go to

02:48:10 to page three go back to the minute page three this is rbk3020703

02:48:24 um if you go to page three in there which was where we were before the next bullet point says this nh it's highlighted in yellow on your

02:48:35 it's highlighted in yellow on your screen nh said we should continue to use wsc

02:48:40 wsc and ask re and sr to identify a place by 12 noon today

02:48:49 and this is to to identify a place is this right for use as a community assistance center

02:48:57 yes yes

02:49:01 was that a realistic request to identify a a location for a cac

02:49:07 for a cac by 12 noon that day within two hours no did you tell him it wasn't a realistic question well at the time um um he my name's lex but it was it was re

02:49:19 um he my name's lex but it was it was re of get his name um he had already looked a list of places so i didn't know whether he knew that he had somewhere i mean that most councils would know or you would

02:49:30 most councils would know or you would hope you would know if there was accommodation in your area which you could come commandeer for that or this organization you could speak to so i thought he might have something in mind when i see by 12 noon today

02:49:41 when i see by 12 noon today and then what what he came back with to say he couldn't find anything he could that

02:49:45 that i just thought the west way seemed to be the the place now um

02:49:51 now um was the position that a suitable alternative location wasn't identified and that by the 17th of june westway had transitioned into a cac or was it still a rest center

02:50:03 or was it still a rest center um

02:50:05 um in my um

02:50:06 in my um thoughts it was transitioning yeah into a

02:50:10 a cac right

02:50:12 cac right let's see if we can just pin this down a little bit more accurately rbk302078

02:50:20 this is a little bit later in the day this is an email from tony andrews to

02:50:27 to emma sprague at the red cross rebecca blackburn in the back and also a number of others including you

02:50:35 you dear or many thanks for your contributions this afternoon and this post dates the the gold meeting that afternoon and the next hasg meeting but underneath the words con to confirm the

02:50:47 underneath the words con to confirm the actions agreed it says westway will be used as a temporary community assistance center over the weekend 9 a.m to 6 p.m so is it the case that at some point during the 16th the decision was taken

02:50:58 during the 16th the decision was taken that the westway would transition at least temporarily into a cac yes it was um someone had spoken to the westway um we'd already set up the the group that was looking what needed to be done and

02:51:09 was looking what needed to be done and it was definitely agreed by the end of that day and the services were going to be in place the next day now um

02:51:15 now um if we then stick with the topic westway and stick with the date 16th of june 2017 a little bit later in that day from this email

02:51:26 this email let's go to rbk3020821

02:51:30 this is an email on

02:51:34 on the 16th of june 2017 at 1914 if we go to the bottom of page one of your screen your email of the email run there from toby gould to emma sprague and you

02:51:45 from toby gould to emma sprague and you and mark sawyer copy to tony andrews re humanitarian assistance center com stroke information requirement and shopping list you see that yes

02:51:56 you see that yes uh and then if you turn the page to page two top of page two he says this i know you are well aware of the community tensions and the urgent need for information for those affected from what

02:52:07 information for those affected from what we're hearing there are confused messages being given out on the ground with for example police and other rbkc query staff turning friends and family away from the westway center and telling those with missing loved ones to call

02:52:19 those with missing loved ones to call the casualty bureau instead there is a concern that this is fueling community tensions and the turning people away is preventing them from getting the support they so need i know work is ongoing to improve the

02:52:30 i know work is ongoing to improve the communications but as an interim measure if clear messages could be given to the frontline staff across all responding agencies about what is available and where that would be a good step forward

02:52:42 where that would be a good step forward my question is were you aware that this was a problem before you received this email confused messages being given out

02:52:51 i don't i don't recall knowing that you don't recall knowing that so when you received this email did what toby gould is saying here in the passage i've read to you come to you as a surprise

02:53:04 um i think i read this later than i get when he said to put him it probably wasn't a surprise because it was transitioning and it was it wasn't no one had said this will be a community

02:53:15 one had said this will be a community assistance center i don't think comms hadn't gone out i don't think to people it was still people still working on it that's what i think now if we scroll to the top the top of page one in this email run

02:53:27 page one in this email run we can see that tony andrews then sent an email to the beck email address as you can see copied to you and others including emma sprague

02:53:38 including emma sprague and it says to comes and this is time now at 2017 on the evening of the 16th of june to comes please see the message below about current confusion on the purpose

02:53:50 about current confusion on the purpose of the center at westway and about the location of the police friends and family center resulting in distressed people being wrongly sent away from tomorrow morning westway will be a temporary community assistance center

02:54:02 temporary community assistance center until we can set up a proper longer term facility

02:54:05 facility there will be welfare housing health and psychological support available for anyone affected by the incident between 9am and 6pm on saturday and sunday and onwards please ask the beck to check

02:54:17 onwards please ask the beck to check with the police for the definite location of the friends and family reception center so that can be included within the comms on all websites including the new dot gov website

02:54:28 including the new dot gov website please also ask the bec to clarify westway's possible use as a rest center so that this can also be clear in the same message please ensure that the managers of the

02:54:39 please ensure that the managers of the center are clear so that reception and security staff don't send people away wrongly

02:54:47 um now focusing there on the request to ask the bec to check with the police for the definite location of the friends and family reception center what did you understand that to be

02:54:58 understand that to be that center what was that about that's where um bereaved

02:55:04 bereaved and people who've been married would go right to find out from the police what was happening right so not westway no

02:55:14 and to your recollection was it clear was the communication clear that if bereaved friends and family wanted information about their loved ones then the west way was not the place

02:55:26 ones then the west way was not the place to go

02:55:27 to go at that time it wasn't clear where people would go right what to your recollection was the place where friends and family could go for news about their loved ones

02:55:38 for news about their loved ones well over this time i think there was a bit of confusion about this one of the um

02:55:42 um there was another center i forget the name

02:55:44 name where it was called at that time the family and friends and families receptions and in the locality i forget what it was um but obviously people were coming anywhere for so they might be coming to the west way as well

02:55:57 why was there a lack of or apparent lack of clarity about where the

02:56:04 where the location of the friends and family reception center was or was to be

02:56:10 i can't answer that but i do know that the work i did the next few days was all about looking at a friends and family's reception center somewhere else and setting it up properly i don't know i think the police set this up i don't

02:56:22 think the police set this up i don't know what where they set it up

02:56:26 did you know if anybody told you that the friends and family reception center uh

02:56:32 uh had been moved on the evening or by the evening of the 14th of june to the west way i didn't know that was formal i i can't recall that at all right

02:56:48 do you agree that it was a matter for some concern that even two and a half days after the fire there was still uncertainty about the location of support for those seeking support and information about their loved ones

02:56:59 their loved ones yes

02:57:01 yes and were you concerned about that at the time um

02:57:06 time um because i didn't know everything um i didn't know there was this i knew people didn't we're not knowing where to go properly we were trying to get well i was trying to get some comms messages out through

02:57:17 to get some comms messages out through the comms team um yeah absolutely concerned and i didn't when i saw when i went home ever the night and saw what was happening to people it was horrendous so that's why i just

02:57:27 just it was horrendous and it was concerned mr chairman it's a little bit before one o'clock but this would be a convenient moment the next topic uh will take us well beyond

02:57:39 next topic uh will take us well beyond one o'clock and there's no immediate stopping point in it which would be convenient so it's now giving you a moment well in that case you better stop now

02:57:45 now thank you we're going to stop now uh mr and say we can all get some lunch we'll resume please at two o'clock and as i've asked you before please don't talk to anyone about your evidence

02:57:56 don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it while you're out of the room all right thank you very much

02:58:10 thank you mr millet two o'clock peace