Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea Evidence - Tuesday 3rd May 2022 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:25 would you ask mrs redman to come back in please thank you

00:00:42 alright mr evan ready to carry on yeah thank you very much yes mr miller yes mr chairman um mr edmund before we go back to where we were going which was the 16th of june can i just take a slightly sideways look uh at the at your evidence

00:00:55 sideways look uh at the at your evidence um

00:00:56 um and look back at your training can you clarify for us please whether your lack of contingency management training during your interim role was to do with where you were placed or your agency statement

00:01:08 or your agency statement or whether you found that other permanent senior staff you were working with during your first week uh were equally untrained in contingency management

00:01:18 um my lack of training was because um i guess i was an interim um i hadn't been trained in any of the my interim posts either

00:01:29 posts either did you ever establish whether colleagues at rbkc say colleagues but those occupying similar positions to you in adult services in rbkc for example stella bailey or in

00:01:41 in rbkc for example stella bailey or in css children's social services had more training with you than you on contingency management i didn't know that you didn't know that

00:01:52 from your experience in other councils does the lack of your own training and as far as you could see possibly the lack of others training for permanent senior staff surprise you um

00:02:03 um i think it's one of the lessons i would like

00:02:06 like to put down that the there isn't lack of training there's there is training different authorities have different levels of training but i've been in quite a lot of authorities at the senior level and

00:02:15 level and um

00:02:17 um the training one gets if you just see gold

00:02:20 gold bronze and silver it does not and there wasn't any training on a halo there wasn't any training on the depth and breadth of the humanitarian assistance group um

00:02:30 um it does not give people the experience to deal with what happened here and or or and certainly in terms of the director of adult social services being in that halo role i'm not

00:02:42 services being in that halo role i'm not quite sure why but also if you're doing that you need to be absolutely really trained in that and i've never had that right

00:02:51 right let's turn then to the 16th of june 2017 and the gold meeting on that morning at 10 a.m

00:02:58 10 a.m which you tell us in your statement you attended

00:03:00 attended um and we go back we go and we've covered that then let's move on then to the next meeting

00:03:08 meeting chronologically two hours later a noon which is the second humanitarian assistance steering group on that date now let's go to rbk40

00:03:19 now let's go to rbk40 please

00:03:27 and you can see the document we looked at earlier and we studied item three here clarify with rbkc gold

00:03:36 rbkc gold just looking down at page seven we can see the attendees

00:03:42 and looking down the list do you agree that it remained the position at this point noon on the 16th that

00:03:50 that um

00:03:51 um the only

00:03:53 the only voluntary and community organization present

00:03:56 present was cruz cruz bereavement care

00:04:06 um well i'm looking at the list and there's victim support there and british red cross

00:04:14 okay and um the archdeacon was representing the faith such as well park right thank you so well british red cross is picking those out

00:04:25 out was there because there was a pre-existing protocol or at least one that had expired but we're still being still being acted upon between our bkc

00:04:36 still being acted upon between our bkc and the brc did you know that yes yes so then the archdeacon of middlesex um do you know how he came to be at this meeting

00:04:47 be at this meeting yes um

00:04:49 yes um uh we asked i asked tony redpath to identify voluntary sector people plus faith group sector someone who could represent and join the meetings from the faith groups and i think um

00:05:03 and i think um as

00:05:03 as the archdeacon was was mentioned as possibly representing a portion of faith groups to come to this meeting at that short notice and which portion was that well it wasn't he wasn't representing

00:05:14 well it wasn't he wasn't representing the whole well i think he was represented he was i was told he was representing the faith sector right but apart from them it's right it looks as if it's right that other than those um perhaps three at most generous three

00:05:26 um perhaps three at most generous three entities or people uh voluntary and community organizations remained uninvited or overlooked is that the case

00:05:38 um i think the purpose of inviting the voluntary sector rep representatives rather than a lot of voluntary sector because this meeting was huge and um but i do think someone who is representing the voluntary sector or

00:05:49 representing the voluntary sector or tony should have spoken should have come knowing what was happening in the voluntary sector communities out there then right do you know what happened what had happened by way of attempts made by rbkc to get voluntary

00:06:02 attempts made by rbkc to get voluntary and faith sectors to attend no i just left it to them um if we

00:06:08 um if we go to page two of this document we can see

00:06:11 see that the topic of communication is raised here at page two

00:06:18 and if you um look at uh item 11 there

00:06:23 there you can see that there are some suggestions and it says collate all information on help lines services rest centers etc and publish to the public via comms channels and gov uk

00:06:34 and gov uk stroke rbkc website to produce leaflet versions and provide all frontline services dealing with those affected by the incident to consider language barriers stroke alternative languages straight distribution via community

00:06:45 straight distribution via community stroke faith networks now um how at that stage how advanced were the communications from our bkc to those affected perhaps through these

00:06:56 those affected perhaps through these channels do you know well i know they weren't very effective because i i i saw what was happening um on the television they weren't effective but this was now taking

00:07:07 but this was now taking getting all that information saying this needs to be done now and and getting someone to take that action right were you disappointed that it hadn't been done before or was it your expectation that it should have been done before this time this is now more than 48 hours

00:07:19 this time this is now more than 48 hours after the

00:07:20 after the fire

00:07:21 fire i think a lot of the things that came to this group should have been done before right does that include improving comms or getting communication

00:07:32 improving comms or getting communication conduits like this in place yes yes now if we turn please to um page

00:07:42 six of the same set of minutes we can see

00:07:47 see there

00:07:49 there there is

00:07:50 there is under the heading action sorry under the heading health and well-being subgroup um item seven look at 7.2 it says the group discussed the need to look at making information available in

00:08:01 look at making information available in different languages signposting people looking for their loved ones away from hospitals safeguarding for stranded children and the coordination of volunteers whose suggestion

00:08:12 whose suggestion was that

00:08:14 was that or who's prompting did that discussion take place was it yours um yes we were asking we wanted people to raise the issues that they were they had found from their their first subgroup

00:08:26 found from their their first subgroup and the things that they were raising from their subgroup with these these issues what provision had been made at that stage for providing information to those whose english was not their first language

00:08:37 language i don't personally know do you know what support was provided at the west way for that category of people including the provision of interpreters i don't know was there an awareness that

00:08:49 i don't know was there an awareness that this part of rbkc was ethnically diverse and that english wasn't a first language for potentially very many numbers of people i would have thought there was

00:09:00 i would have thought there was right you thought there was but were you aware that this was something in people's minds and i can't recall whether something was mentioned earlier on about um

00:09:11 mentioned earlier on about um interpreters but certainly i i wasn't i i don't know um this was just raised at my meeting and do you know what had prompted the suggestion for sign posting people looking for loved ones away from

00:09:22 looking for loved ones away from hospitals what prompted that i think that's because um people were were looking for information to see if their loved ones were in hospital or where they were i think that's what that

00:09:33 where they were i think that's what that relates to what would that involve sign posting them away from hospital um this is um these were they were raising the things they needed to do next and i guess and

00:09:44 they needed to do next and i guess and we we didn't have a long this was a much more tactical meeting so we were they were saying these are the things they discussed in this group and these are things they were going to address i'm hoping what and i think some of the conversations were putting social

00:09:55 conversations were putting social workers in there getting getting people to go and meet people at hospitals so they could actually talk to them and this

00:10:02 and this concern what was the root of this concern do you know

00:10:10 um i can't recall but i think it was people were very distressed looking for their loved ones and maybe the hospital wasn't the right place and they should go to the family and friends central

00:10:21 go to the family and friends central they should go somewhere else why was that still happening more than 48 hours after the incident

00:10:30 i'm speculating that those are the places weren't giving them the information that they needed but why were they still going to hospitals looking for loved ones i can't 48 hours after the incident you can't help us

00:10:41 after the incident you can't help us with that was that a question mark was that a was that a topic examined at this meeting

00:10:46 meeting um this was um this was the feedback from the chair of the subgroup had met the day before saying the things they were looking at and that was one of the things they were looking at and they were going to try and address that

00:11:00 we didn't the group then the whole group then didn't go into a lot of discussion about all these things it was a feedback from them about the the things they were looking at what they were dealing with next i see so there was no examination of the reasons why was that still 48

00:11:13 of the reasons why was that still 48 hours after the incident families were still drifting around under hospitals trying to find news of their loved ones that might have been at me i don't recall it but they certainly would have been at that subgroup meeting they would have looked at why right now let's go and go to

00:11:27 at why right now let's go and go to the meeting on the 20th of june four days later rbk401014

00:11:44 now as i say this is the 20th of june so we're now

00:11:49 on the monday

00:11:54 tuesday i think in fact after the fire sue redmond as item 46 sue redmond housing and temple accommodation subgroup sue redmond to work with comms on a resource directory and a simple message at faq's

00:12:06 directory and a simple message at faq's document to give to all affected individuals deadline to get this out to those workers on the front line by 1500 today 20th june was it the case that by tuesday 20th of

00:12:17 was it the case that by tuesday 20th of june

00:12:18 june a leaflet or faq document has still not yet been produced for those affected by the fire

00:12:26 i can't remember whether any anything did happen but obviously i needed to do something better then produce something better and this is of course this was after the la lag had been activated on the friday the

00:12:39 had been activated on the friday the 16th of june in the afternoon did you get any help from or any oversight or any input from lnag in relation

00:12:47 relation to working on comms to improve it in the manner identified here before this time or after this before this action before this time but between the 16th and the 20th

00:13:00 between the 16th and the 20th um

00:13:01 um i didn't have this as an action point and on this for me

00:13:05 for me after the 16th um

00:13:08 um llg took over and it was a totally different structure that was created can you explain why there was a delay in producing a leaflet well certainly it was on our agenda when we had our 16th

00:13:19 we had our 16th hasg meeting in rbkc it was one of the actions that the subgroups were going to take forward and after that there was a different structure kicked in and i don't know why that actually didn't take place um maybe

00:13:30 that actually didn't take place um maybe the structure had changed or it been lost in the transitions i can't answer you can't answer and let's just try this let's go to rbk3014835

00:13:42 now this is what i'm showing you here is a document circulated on the 20th of june 2017

00:13:51 2017 by the grenfell tower victims unit which was

00:13:57 prepared by central government mhclg we know that from gol

00:14:06 gol 50611 which i don't need to show you it is a grenfell tower victims unit guidance document and it's uh it it says um the unit in

00:14:18 and it's uh it it says um the unit in the second paragraph the unit will act as a single point of access into government for those affected by the grenfell tower fire and will coordinate government support services on issues such as benefits immigration transport

00:14:29 such as benefits immigration transport education and health this is in addition to the support services available at the community assistance center we are not an advice line for victims which is provided by the british red cross on and then there's a number however we can help to

00:14:41 there's a number however we can help to resolve any questions and problems that support workers social workers family liaison officers housing officers etc are encountering on behalf of victims is this the document you saw at the time

00:14:53 is this the document you saw at the time i probably did you probably did did rbkc produce any document for victims

00:15:01 victims in

00:15:02 in in in this same way uh after the 20th of june this this

00:15:09 this this this work comes out of um the llag group that was then um assembled so we were all doing tasks to feed into this not our bkc they weren't involved really it was

00:15:21 bkc they weren't involved really it was it was the rest of us now who are in this in this um the next phase i don't think rbkc did anything but i can't remember right this this organization

00:15:32 remember right this this organization these were this

00:15:34 this um document was published with all the input that we were all doing over those days to gather all this information put it all together when i say we i mean the people who've been moved to westminster to carry on

00:15:46 been moved to westminster to carry on with the longer term planning right did rbkc they produce any anything of their own independently of this document for victims i don't know right now in your first statement at page 13

00:15:59 now in your first statement at page 13 uh if we can go to that please paragraph 61

00:16:04 61 you say

00:16:07 i wrote a number of emails before my visit to number 10. i was a lead person with the members and reported to them and had to provide them with support counselor mary wheel was distraught on the friday the lack of communications coming out of rbkc with

00:16:20 communications coming out of rbkc with members not being told what was going on and the whole situation becoming increasingly negative towards rbkc i produced a copy of an email that i sent her as exhibit sr 29 in which i mentioned the need for support what i

00:16:32 mentioned the need for support what i meant by this is that she was not being supported by comms i mentioned that this could have this could have serious implications and by that i meant i thought the council would be taken over

00:16:45 uh now um what we need from that then is the email rbk3020903

00:16:57 and here is an email from you to counselor wheel on the 17th of june 2017. so this is this is now the saturday uh

00:17:06 uh very early in the morning i think 12 minutes past midnight you see that yes subject hello dear counselor wheel apologies for not ringing earlier and then you say i i

00:17:18 and then you say i i i so know you as

00:17:22 as i think i'm not quite sure how to read that i know you and other councillors want to have clear actions etc i want to talk to people as you are real community leaders to be very honest you need a lot more support in that area that hasn't been happening

00:17:34 been happening and what was that a reference to i saw councillor wheel in the in our bkc before we were all um had to move out and i met her she was very upset and she

00:17:46 and i met her she was very upset and she said um her and some of the counselors they had met people they wanted to call a community meeting uh could could i speak to someone because they're not hearing anything that's happening could i speak to people in rbkc and perhaps

00:17:58 i speak to people in rbkc and perhaps arrange something for them so they could meet with people in the community right and the foot of the email you say there are serious implications in all this not that any other council could have done better as it's so huge but

00:18:09 have done better as it's so huge but because i fear there will be the need to make a statement if you understand now in your statement you say that there you meant you thought the council would be taken over but in relation to that when did you first

00:18:20 when did you first fear or think that the council would be taken over

00:18:26 um suppose when i make meant the council would take around not so much that gold would come in and take over um the operations and the support because i thought that was quite right i meant that some people in the council would go

00:18:38 that some people in the council would go i see

00:18:40 i see was was your well your serious implications that you were averting to here in this email something that was discussed among our be rbkc senior leadership oh no no not at all um it was um

00:18:52 at all um it was um other people talking about rbkc right i see now going back in time to the 16th of june 2017 if we can look back at the minutes of the noon

00:19:02 the noon hasg meeting on that day you those are at rbk402040

00:19:09 let's look at page 2 please action 14 at the foot of page 2.

00:19:15 chair you see it says chair clarify with rbkc gold responsibility for coordination of volunteers noted should not be a responsibility of brc due to other priority work they are

00:19:27 due to other priority work they are leading strokes supporting why did that need to be clarified um

00:19:34 um again i think this because a british red cross thought felt they were doing things they shouldn't be doing and it was a council's responsibility

00:19:45 right who had fed that back to this meeting

00:19:50 and unless it's later on i'm assuming it's someone from um british red cross right

00:19:56 right and

00:19:58 and did the meeting agree with those concerns that the brc was overreaching itself

00:20:04 itself no it wasn't that sort of meeting it was just they were feeding back that they they didn't think they should be doing that no i'm not the meeting argued that um

00:20:12 um it was just a sense that they should not be doing this and the council should be dealing with volunteers right and do we take it from that that it was the brc who had been coordinating volunteers up to that point

00:20:24 coordinating volunteers up to that point um

00:20:26 i know um i don't know whether it came after this or before this that the um the beck was given responsibility for coordinating volunteers but i don't know whether they were doing it appropriately

00:20:37 whether they were doing it appropriately or they were doing it properly right

00:20:41 and i think brc um british red cross were getting lots of phone calls and offers of support i think right now um

00:20:48 now um i want them to turn to the activation of the llag and the handover of the halo roll uh if we get back to your first statement please page 10 paragraph 47

00:21:04 you say then i'm summarizing that you uh on the afternoon of the 16th of june you left the town hall and you went to the westminster city council offices because of the protest at the town hall and i

00:21:16 of the protest at the town hall and i think it's right isn't it that by this stage london local authority gold had been activated in the sense that the handover had been completed is that right

00:21:24 right i found out that when i got to westminster yen right and then the paragraph 48 you say i i remember when i got to westminster a number of rooms had been set up and subgroups were already up and running

00:21:36 subgroups were already up and running there were numerous other chief executives in attendance and a lot of tasks were being carried out i did ask why london gold did not help from day one

00:21:44 one and was told that they had to be invited in

00:21:47 in to help by the council i thought that in these circumstances this protocol needed to be changed and to whom did you speak about that on that day

00:22:01 um i think i asked i don't know who i may have asked mark sawyer why they didn't come in and he said they had to be invited right and then i had the thought that these circumstances needed to be changes and i

00:22:13 circumstances needed to be changes and i then followed that thought with an email yes

00:22:17 yes uh what what was it about this incident that led you to think that the protocol needed to be changed i couldn't believe that um something this big and people were watching it for days and there were experts in community planning

00:22:30 experts in community planning absolute experts in london who could come in and support and that they had to be asked to come in and if they weren't asked i just thought there should be some protocol that said you have to there has to be a different way of working this

00:22:49 let's go to page 14 of your statement paragraph 69 just to

00:22:55 to round that off you say

00:23:00 it was clear that the scale of the disaster and the immediate need for leadership and direction and coordination was much greater than rbkc could respond to as expected by people i think members and some staff were on the scene very quickly but did not take the

00:23:12 scene very quickly but did not take the lead in my view at the very earliest of the stages a gold london-wide team should have been set up experts sent in and coordination advice and support given to the council can you clarify for

00:23:23 given to the council can you clarify for us whether those are your views now in hindsight or whether those were views you held at the time in the midst of the

00:23:30 of the response

00:23:32 response i still held them now yes but did you hold them then i did you did right

00:23:38 and can you help us what difference would it have made to the response had a gold london wide team been set up at the outset at say 6 am on the 14th of june

00:23:50 6 am on the 14th of june well not only would you had more people but you would have experts who were trained and

00:23:57 and communications would have been and also my view of what happened when i got to westminster was um or even just my my very short meeting with mark sawyer i asked him for something and the

00:24:08 sawyer i asked him for something and the next minute it was there and they had resources to their fingertips like this they were commander control they were doing things

00:24:17 things that you is this right you didn't observe happening at the back it wasn't just the bec it was a whole range of

00:24:24 range of things they were doing the beck was one small there was there's lots of groups doing things um and acting on them and experts saying this is what we need we need to get this person in bring that person and do this

00:24:35 person and do this it was very coordinated right

00:24:41 now when you attended westminster city council offices on the evening of the 16th because that's where we are now the friday evening what happened to your role as halo

00:24:54 i don't know exactly how it happened but um

00:24:58 i think um there were a number of chief execs already there who had experience of being um halos and they took on that role and then i i became support to them i think that's how it happened right

00:25:10 i think that's how it happened right and

00:25:11 and what was the status of the response at this point of handover to london gold where have you gone up to

00:25:19 um sorry

00:25:22 well let me see if i can get it more much more specifically can we go to an email

00:25:27 email at gol401303

00:25:31 this is an email that you sent to mark sawyer on

00:25:35 sawyer on the morning of the 18th of june that's the sunday at 1105 if you go down please to the foot of page one and over to page two

00:25:49 uh to be clear you're sending this email to john baradel and julia corkey as well as charlie parker at wcc you misspelled john baridal's name so he

00:26:01 you misspelled john baridal's name so he doesn't get it but it doesn't matter

00:26:05 what that happens is mark sawyer corrects it and sends sends it on to him but

00:26:10 but looking at the text of your email at the bottom of page one you say dear john and co and then over to the top of page two i have no idea of the protocol or if you will even read

00:26:21 of the protocol or if you will even read this from me because the amazing support and structure is kicking in and we are now in a different world and believe me i appreciate that and i'm learning so much however i have to share this i have to share with you some thinking if i'm to

00:26:33 share with you some thinking if i'm to be able to hold my head up after all this

00:26:35 this i can absolutely appreciate the political issues however there are lots of learning from previous incidents not least the issues of scapegoats whether individuals or organizations there are

00:26:46 individuals or organizations there are hundreds of staff still going to work tomorrow in our bkc and they may be feeling demoralized following the impact of political attacks they need to know they aren't crap are valued and continue to have something significant to

00:26:57 to have something significant to contribute and they need to feel the organization is still okay and say without beating about the bush our bkc will need to continue and do their job with residents and whatever people feel about that we have a

00:27:09 people feel about that we have a responsibility to make sure the council is working well and have a good team leading it who have the explicit confidence of everyone and they're not undermined so deal with what you need to let the rest of our bkc get on with the

00:27:20 let the rest of our bkc get on with the vital work they do and let's agree who can do that and help them do that rather than watching them fail and then going in it's not going to help residents if the whole organization folds so there needs to be a plan for that instead of a

00:27:32 needs to be a plan for that instead of a whole scale attack and for the future maybe a lesson learned is that you don't wait london gold for a council to ask you but in a major incident like this where the council itself may be

00:27:43 where the council itself may be traumatized you just step in three exclamation marks so we are all responsible aren't we sue [Applause] now can can you just tell us why you

00:27:56 now can can you just tell us why you felt you needed to write this email to john baradel on the morning of sunday the 18th of june

00:28:06 um from the friday um

00:28:11 um just some of us went to um westminster one of them was nicholas holgate and one was me and i think tony redpath out of rbkc i don't know i was just the viewers

00:28:22 the viewers um

00:28:23 um and from then through to the sunday um i saw how

00:28:32 i don't know what the word is how marginalized he was they were in this whole new structure

00:28:39 structure um i i had had emails from managers um in rbkc

00:28:45 in rbkc saying

00:28:45 saying and their staff were feeling terrible about the way the evacuation of the building had gone they were feeling frightened about going to work they felt the whole council um because of the press that felt the whole

00:28:57 because of the press that felt the whole council was rubbish and they were feeling awful um i also picked up lots of stuff on the um the friday night and the saturday and some of the sunday

00:29:09 saturday and some of the sunday from

00:29:10 from people across professionals across london who were working about how they thought arby casey had not handled this and how bad they were

00:29:21 handled this and how bad they were and i had some experience in adult social care and in social care i have organizations that have had deaths um and as a consequence

00:29:32 deaths um and as a consequence some people have been scapegoated and it's taken years for the organization to recruit stuff again and to get staff moving and in that moment in that immediate

00:29:41 immediate um

00:29:42 um time they were feeling terrible the services weren't operating it was falling apart so i just i just i felt a sense a bit of sense of injustice about

00:29:53 injustice about every single criticism that was i wasn't i didn't know rbkc really every single sense of injustice that was put in their direction i felt angry that people had watched it for two days and i didn't

00:30:04 watched it for two days and i didn't understand why and i just wanted him um to actually make a decision what about um are you going to support these leaders in rbkc to get on with that job

00:30:15 leaders in rbkc to get on with that job or are you not and you can't let it gradually

00:30:18 gradually go on

00:30:21 and when you say um

00:30:27 let in the in the last sentence of the fourth paragraph and the end there let's agree who can do that and help them do that rather than watching them fail and then going in

00:30:38 fail and then going in did you think the council had failed before london gold was that activated yes you did now your observation at the end

00:30:50 now your observation at the end was

00:30:51 was or included that the council itself may be traumatized what led you to think that that might be the case

00:31:01 i saw some people who patently weren't functioning properly um

00:31:09 it was um

00:31:13 people weren't operating the way they should have been and people were very upset

00:31:18 upset and lead leadership people were very upset and not functioning

00:31:25 let's then turn to the 17th of june 2017 which i know chronologically is the day before this email but in the events this is what comes next we know

00:31:37 next we know and correct me if we're wrong about this but the role of halo was in fact passed over to mary harpley is that right and she at the time was the chief executive of hounslow council yes yes and you say you were instructed

00:31:48 yes yes and you say you were instructed to support mary harpley did you see any difference in the response while supporting mary harpley um

00:32:00 everything was very different and we're in this huge floor of westminster council the center there was a central hub

00:32:06 hub there were different offices for every single

00:32:08 single area that were operating in it in those offices there were people to take notes there were people who um were information officers the people who would be runners um there were lots of stuff working to

00:32:19 um there were lots of stuff working to them there was a huge coordination where in terms of the halo she she had a short meeting with john baradel and a few people she came up with a few actions she had to do she came in to us gave us our instructions it was very

00:32:32 gave us our instructions it was very organized and very smooth i'm very resourced right did you get the impression that mary harpley had knowledge and expertise

00:32:40 expertise of how to run a major incident as a council leader under the pan london arrangements

00:32:52 yes i think i did did you ask yourself at the time the question

00:32:57 question let me try it this way did you make a comparison in your own mind between mary harpley and her activities and approach and that of nicholas holgate

00:33:11 no i i didn't make that comparison and there was a huge infrastructure there absolutely huge infrastructure around here right so so

00:33:20 so just to be clear you don't is this right you don't attribute mary hartley's response

00:33:26 response to perhaps better expertise and training in the matter of civil contingencies than that which nick holgate had nicholas holgate had

00:33:35 i i don't really have a i can't really i don't feel comfortable i don't i can't really say that she was doing a humanitarian assistance liaison role which was one aspect of the civil

00:33:46 which was one aspect of the civil contingency and she was doing that with this in this huge infrastructure i'm sure she was very well trained right do you know what training she had to adopt the halo role no you don't let's

00:33:57 adopt the halo role no you don't let's look at her statement gaol401114

00:34:02 this is her second witness statement to the inquiry

00:34:07 and if we go in that please to page two paragraph three she says

00:34:18 my initial assessment on arriving was that our big the rbkc team working with partners had tried to cover all the key strands of humanitarian assistance but that they had not managed to demonstrate enough progress in any of

00:34:29 demonstrate enough progress in any of these areas on the ground to provide confidence to survivors and observers that the right work was being done

00:34:36 done and pausing there i think do you agree that rbkc had not made enough progress yet in covering all the key strands of humanitarian assistance before the 17th of june yes yes and she continues coming

00:34:48 of june yes yes and she continues coming into the team it was clear that some of the things which really needed to be in place were not these included a single definitive list of the hotels into which surviving families and individuals had

00:34:59 surviving families and individuals had been placed with basic contact information a process for communicating regularly with these families and individuals which should have been underway already a clear understanding of which families

00:35:10 a clear understanding of which families and individuals had the greatest needs notwithstanding the terrible situation everyone was in and a list of key community faith and other leaders with whom i would have expected the rbk scene to have been

00:35:21 expected the rbk scene to have been engaging already i've said in my original witness statement that there was little to no handover from the rbkc team which made it difficult to know at the start whether these things did already exist or not we could not find them so had to

00:35:33 or not we could not find them so had to assume they did not i've read that all to you um

00:35:39 um in relation to her list of things that were missing do you consider that her list is a fair summary

00:35:46 summary yes

00:35:50 if we go back to her first statement gaol

00:35:54 gaol 50441

00:36:04 if i can show you page 4 paragraph 13 she says this

00:36:15 by the time help was accepted the rbkc team were exhausted and not in a position to provide any meaningful handover to the lnag team coming in to support them consequently the llag team had to spend

00:36:26 consequently the llag team had to spend quite a lot of time assessing the situation and trying to establish for example contact information for families disbursed in hotels or who were the key leaders and contacts in the local community with whom we should engage

00:36:38 community with whom we should engage do you agree with that observation yes i do and she's not counting me as the rbkc team at this point but yes i do let's then turn to the meeting at downing street

00:36:49 downing street on the 17th of june in in your first statement if we go to that please page 11 you cover this at paragraph 53 and you say

00:37:00 and you say in the midst of all that was happening during the day i was informed by westminster comms that i was required to attend at number 10 downing street on the 17th for a meeting with some of the residents and the prime minister to provide an update on behalf of rbkc

00:37:13 provide an update on behalf of rbkc now um in your contact with lorna gratton who was an aide to the prime minister

00:37:20 minister she sent an email and let's look at that that's at rbk3020896

00:37:38 i think you were you actually spoke to her to understand what it was that you needed to do at the meeting yes yes and she follows that up with this email on the friday the 16th before the saturday

00:37:49 the friday the 16th before the saturday the 17th meeting and this is timed at 11 12 in the morning as you can see uh and she says to you sue thanks for speaking to me earlier for agreeing to attend the meeting at downing street tomorrow

00:38:00 meeting at downing street tomorrow um and then if you go to the fourth paragraph down you it says or she says this as discussed with as discussed the pm will mostly be listening to the concerns of the residents and volunteers

00:38:11 concerns of the residents and volunteers she may turn to you for help with some of the questions they ask you certainly won't be expected to know all of the answers but listening to concerns and hopefully acting on them subsequently will go a long way as discussed many of

00:38:22 will go a long way as discussed many of the residents were frustrated by a perceived lack of information and coordination from the council however they very polite in the meeting today and i would expect the tone tomorrow to be similar though they may be even

00:38:33 be similar though they may be even better prepared with questions and examples

00:38:39 now in relation to what she says there about

00:38:43 about the residents being frustrated by a perceived lack of information and coordination from the council did you agree at the time from what you had observed up to that point that that was a justified complaint

00:38:55 that that was a justified complaint yes

00:39:03 now ahead of the meeting uh in downing street you i think forwarded this email to nicholas holgate let's look at that rbk rbk3z rbk3049583

00:39:22 this is at the foot of page one and over to page two

00:39:27 you email him subject meeting tomorrow at downing street on grenfell towers uh dear nicholas and then over to page top of page two i hope you're okay

00:39:40 top of page two i hope you're okay i'm just pausing there that that's a a

00:39:44 a it's a self-explanatory sentiment was it prompted by any observation on your part that he was very far from okay

00:39:54 um i don't know how very far from okay but it was we left uh when we left rbkc and went to we all made our own way to westminster

00:40:05 we all made our own way to westminster i just observed he was just left there basically um sitting there and it was yeah

00:40:12 yeah and then you go on i thought i would share with you what i've just had from number 10. i've also shared with tony and councillor wheel as she was wanting to meet groups tomorrow and me be there so wanted to let her know why i couldn't

00:40:24 so wanted to let her know why i couldn't i'm not sure this is the time to talk about how i feel and i'm not even sure i should go to tomorrow's meeting but if there's anything you want to advise or you want to steer i'd be very grateful

00:40:34 what do you mean by i'm not sure this is the time to talk about how i feel well um

00:40:42 well um i absolutely did not think i was a person to go to that meeting

00:40:47 right

00:40:50 and you say in your statement i think in that in this regard that you were you were not totally familiar with the way rbkc operated or the key personnel involved

00:41:01 involved do you consider that or did you consider at the time that that lack of familiarity hindered your ability as halo to coordinate the response in any way

00:41:13 um i do think it did i also think by the time the

00:41:18 time the the halo role was there there was so much coming at that halo no one person could have done it i do think that right i mean was it your view at the time that a haley would have been better appointed with from within rbkc

00:41:31 better appointed with from within rbkc as opposed to under the tri-borough arrangements which could have involved anyone from hammersmith and fulham or westminster well i wasn't i was there as a tribe or a person so there could have been anyone

00:41:42 a person so there could have been anyone but it could have been another director either in rbkc or another tribe or a director absolutely yes i mean trying it a different way were you concerned at the time that you were

00:41:53 concerned at the time that you were being sent in to bat for rbkc when it wasn't your borough and and its shortcomings whatever they were or whatever you saw of them were not your responsibility um it was well it was

00:42:05 um it was well it was it was

00:42:06 it was maybe uh a bit of that in that i didn't know rbkc it wasn't my borough but neither i mean i wasn't i'd only been there two months for the three of them so it wasn't i wasn't

00:42:17 so it wasn't i wasn't any more or less involved well i was less involved with rbkc than the rest but it was that if you're going to meet people after what they'd been through to have someone who could say i've only been there i mean i

00:42:29 say i've only been there i mean i wouldn't have said it but this person's only been there two months who didn't know the voluntary sector colleagues who didn't know all the people in the room i don't mean the individuals necessarily but didn't know grenfell didn't know that wasn't gonna to me to be an

00:42:41 that wasn't gonna to me to be an empathetic and a the right response the right person i mean i

00:42:47 i mean i obviously

00:42:48 obviously they said to me you can show empathy you can talk to people that's why they asked me to do it but i didn't know um the area i didn't know the community i would have wanted someone who knew those people to go

00:42:59 someone who knew those people to go there and really really listen and really take something back

00:43:04 back i mean i could do that on one level but not really i didn't think i was the right person and did you make clear to nicholas holgate what you just made clear to us uh no this is a this is like 12 o'clock

00:43:15 uh no this is a this is like 12 o'clock at night isn't it um and i was going there the next morning so i just said that's why i said i'm not sure it's time to how i feel i couldn't write all that in an email i was going um you know i was doing

00:43:26 um you know i was doing um what i was being requested to do and that's why i said i'm not sure i was i'm the right person to go i made those feelings known to westminster comms who are asking me to go

00:43:36 to go now the meeting with the prime minister took place at half past one 30 on saturday the 17th of june but in the i think in the event you were not asked to attend or you didn't attend in the end

00:43:49 or you didn't attend in the end no um no i did i was sat in the room outside yes you didn't go into the meeting and i didn't go into the meeting and in the end i think returned back to cover the response at westminster council's offices

00:44:00 council's offices and someone came out of the meeting who was the

00:44:02 was the the head the person who was representing i don't know the archdeacon or someone and said to me why are you here why isn't nicholas or tony here right

00:44:12 right well why why weren't they um i can't answer that only that i was asked by um that gold command team on the friday night to go right

00:44:23 night to go right i mean did you ask anybody involved in organizing the meeting at downing street why it was that you've been asked but why nicholas holgate or tony red path hadn't well it wasn't the downing street people it was the people

00:44:34 downing street people it was the people in gold who were saying i should go and not the others i follow

00:44:40 and did you ask them the question same question i did what did they tell you

00:44:47 i was the best person to go in the time because i could sit and talk to people and listen and they were they they just said they didn't want those people other people to come

00:44:58 come they didn't think it was right for them to go why not um well i had those conversations but i didn't really i just thought they didn't think they would come across very well or i don't

00:45:10 would come across very well or i don't know

00:45:16 now we i think you received some notes of that meeting they are at rbk3021098

00:45:26 they're not minutes they're notes and

00:45:30 as you can see they come in the form of an email from lorna gratin second email down

00:45:36 down to you

00:45:38 to you on the 17th of june at 6 03 p.m [Music]

00:45:43 [Music] and

00:45:44 and if you look at the substance heisu in the interest of speed below is a slightly rough and ready cut of my notes from the meeting the pm had with local residents and volunteers and then she says i split it into five

00:45:56 and then she says i split it into five sections and those sections are split out and if we go to page two

00:46:05 seven points down from the top uh you can see those the first few words start

00:46:13 start people from council or coordination team can you see that it's it's about two-thirds of the way down the first block of text seventh bullet point down people from council

00:46:24 people from council you see that oh yes people from cancer is there's people from council all coordination team to meet people as they are discharged from hospital to provide support this is apparently not concurrently happening

00:46:36 concurrently happening was that a problem that you were aware of

00:46:39 of during your time as halo no

00:46:45 um i don't think i was specifically aware of that specifically known right whose responsibility was it to know that

00:47:03 people at that time i think um again it goes back to that original conversation people didn't know where people were so i guess some people were going to hospital and being discharged before people had even known where they

00:47:14 before people had even known where they were i think that's so that list of where people were or what would happen to them maybe it hadn't been um coordinated by then pursuing this theme then of

00:47:25 pursuing this theme then of um helping people discharge from hospital can we just go back then to the 14th of june the wednesday

00:47:34 wednesday rbk401026 please

00:47:39 this is an email from laura johnson of rbkc housing

00:47:46 housing uh second email down 14th of june at 7 41 a.m so early on in the incident or early on in the day to robert shaw at housing at our bkc

00:47:58 to robert shaw at housing at our bkc copy to amanda gill rob we shall be organizing a team to send to the two rest centers to assess the displaced people housing need and arrange alternative accommodation for them amanda phoning

00:48:09 accommodation for them amanda phoning around commercial hotels now to find vac to find vacancies we are also setting up a protocol for those people in hospital who will be discharged and need to be re-housed well you're in the holland

00:48:20 re-housed well you're in the holland room if you want to drop by and see what he's doing were you aware um yourself that there was a protocol being developed on the 14th of june in relation to residents being discharged from hospital

00:48:31 from hospital no it wasn't and i think this is again an indication of how siloed some of the responses some of the work was because that would have been a really good example of working with social care on doing those things and helping and

00:48:43 on doing those things and helping and supporting right so your criticism of bear is that this was you say siloed so this was left to housing but they hadn't joined up the dots with social care so that social care staff could

00:48:56 care so that social care staff could offer offer their assistance yes yes it would it would have been more helpful to have more people who are used to hospital discharge processes were you told about this protocol when you took over the halo role

00:49:08 over the halo role or even before that no no do you happen to know whether it was a a pre-existing protocol of whether it was drafted in the wake of the incident or whether it existed at all i have no

00:49:19 or whether it existed at all i have no idea you don't um

00:49:22 um let's look at laura johnson's first statement rbk3035592

00:49:32 page there's the first page of it let's go to page nine p's paragraph 37 she says

00:49:39 she says the protocol for people being discharged from hospital was organized through adult social care asc and families and children's services fcs they had social workers of hospitals to

00:49:50 they had social workers of hospitals to liaise with the hospital and families on what housing and or support they needed when they were due to be discharged ase would then make this information available to housing we would then arrange for them to be placed in hotels

00:50:02 arrange for them to be placed in hotels sue redmond director of asc for triborough took charge of this aspect with claire chamberlain triborough director of children's services uh

00:50:13 uh is that correct that that you took charge of this um not quite i think there's two different aspects of a discharge from hospital the first thing that we were doing was going into the hospitals and and helping existing people not not to

00:50:26 and helping existing people not not to do with the fire who were in hospital and could actually be discharged home so that's what social workers do and they were helping to see if any people could be discharged early from hospital

00:50:37 could be discharged early from hospital therefore freeing up some beds in case the people needed them who were coming in so that's what adult social care did in that respect i see

00:50:45 i see i think the bit about them people going to hospital from the fire and then being discharged home and

00:50:52 and i we send social workers there to actually help people do that but um i don't know how that fits in with

00:50:59 with um with laura's earlier email about a protocol if she's meaning adult social care protocol well ours was about existing people in hospitals being able to be discharged home were there problems relating to the

00:51:10 were there problems relating to the operation of the protocol between adult social care and housing

00:51:17 um again

00:51:20 again the one problems about was discharging existing people but in terms of new people coming in we did send social workers to the hospital just to be there to support but i wasn't aware of a protocol in that respect hopefully they were liaising with each other but

00:51:33 were liaising with each other but they were doing things very differently um but the social worker was sent there to help work with the housing people on trying to help people from your perspective did did it

00:51:45 from your perspective did did it was there a system eventually put in place

00:51:48 place whereby uh um whereby housing and asc liaised about what should happen to those people being discharged from hospital

00:52:01 i actually don't know you don't know

00:52:07 if we go to rbk3011588 please this is an email also

00:52:15 also on the 14th of june sorry 17th of june 2017 of 1423 from michelle scafe at adult social care services rbkc

00:52:28 at adult social care services rbkc to paul hargreaves and

00:52:32 and she says my understanding from a brief discussion with amanda johnson housing this morning is that anyone who will require accommodation at the time of discharge needs to be flagged with them as soon as possible any information

00:52:43 as soon as possible any information pertaining to family members that will need housing with persons for discharge will also be of benefit to housing apparently hospital teams are direct are directly this information to housing or

00:52:54 directly this information to housing or via our bkc asc community liaisons myself stroke and stuart i think it would be helpful for us all to have one directive on this because at the moment there are a number

00:53:05 because at the moment there are a number of lists flying around and assumptions about who is doing what are hospitals sending information direct to housing or is all information coming to us here at asc we pass it on to housing

00:53:16 asc we pass it on to housing rob paul are you able to clarify what the message is that housing has given hospitals in terms of this or how hospital teams are currently working in terms of this matter now clearly you don't get this email at this time but what was the answer to

00:53:28 this time but what was the answer to that

00:53:29 that what was it the case that within rbkc

00:53:34 rbkc from what you could see there was confusion about how the information was to be treated

00:53:41 yes yes so this would chime with you would it i think it would chime with my observation that

00:53:52 teams different departments weren't

00:53:55 weren't didn't really work together as was one response they were doing things differently let's go to gol 401155 then please

00:54:08 now this is a long email run but if we go to or document run but if we go to page

00:54:13 page seven

00:54:14 seven please

00:54:15 please uh and look at item

00:54:19 item 40.

00:54:22 i apologize can i get back to page one just to show you what this document is um this is this is uh the hasg meeting on the 17th of june 2017

00:54:34 meeting on the 17th of june 2017 at 11 o'clock

00:54:37 at kensington town hall so that's this is the saturday uh um uh

00:54:44 uh it says

00:54:46 it says uh

00:54:46 uh meeting today at 13 30 with mary harpley chair andrew meek h.a lead laura johnson amanda johnson housing and of course at this time you're down at downing street waiting to be let into the room but not

00:54:57 waiting to be let into the room but not being let in so you weren't there i assume is that right yes uh right but let's see how far you can help us then if you go to page seven please

00:55:05 please you can see item 40 it says sue redmond la sue redmond to update the group at the next meeting to confirm whether the families within the hospitals are receiving the appropriate

00:55:16 hospitals are receiving the appropriate social care now the first thing is when you got back to westminster from downing street at some point on uh the 17th saturday the 17th of june were you given this note or

00:55:27 17th of june were you given this note or told that you had to update the group at the next meeting on this topic i can't remember but i probably was i got back in the afternoon sometimes so probably

00:55:37 probably right i must have been given it now you can see

00:55:39 can see that you can see what's recorded do you remember this item i don't you don't if we go then to rbk rbk3021637

00:55:52 this is now the set the 18th of june so this is the sunday next the next day

00:55:59 here is an email from uh

00:56:04 sarah binner it's the second email down to stella bailey

00:56:10 and also to michelle skate copied in there as you can see uh and

00:56:16 uh and uh the subject is re h a s g meeting cancellation monday 19th june 2017.

00:56:24 uh and sarah bennett i think just to be clear she was lbhf's provider to provide a project lead wasn't she for the tri-borough i have no idea you know oh right okay

00:56:37 she provides this briefing and if you look a little bit lower down the text of it she says

00:56:46 in brief all cases will require long-term involvement of sw a hospital would allocate an sw social worker from hospital or the complex care

00:56:57 worker from hospital or the complex care teams

00:56:58 teams all in caps communication on allocations will be sent to natasha bishop leading on coordination of sw with regards to hospitals we will continue to discharge patients with an

00:57:09 continue to discharge patients with an allocated worker or to allocate from complex care and liaise with housing

00:57:16 is that right is that what happened this was the monday and by the monday we'd started to get help from elsewhere and we'd ask for social workers from across

00:57:28 we'd ask for social workers from across um london and natasha bishop had been given the role of coordinating that um support of social workers so these things were put in action

00:57:42 right and now if we go to the to uh the last paragraph in in this update she says there we need clarification from housing if patients should be sent directly to the town hall this was the instruction on

00:57:54 town hall this was the instruction on thursday friday last week do you know why discharged patients were advised to go to the town hall rather than to the westway sports center i have no idea i saw that in another email and i had no idea how that would

00:58:05 email and i had no idea how that would be right was this like the failure to be notified of a discharge another breakdown in communication yes

00:58:12 now going back to the i'm sorry to dot around in terms of timing but just see if we can pursue the themes um going back to rbk three zeros zero

00:58:24 this is the post number 10 meeting note that we saw earlier and if we can go to page two please

00:58:32 please look at you look at look at the third entry down

00:58:44 sorry third entry from the bottom of the large chunk of text above the heading specific requests from residents the third from bottom says council to get in touch do you see that yes council to get in touch with

00:58:56 yes council to get in touch with residents associations and other groups with local leaders and have better comms eg a large screen as at football matches now we know that community groups and organizations weren't invited to hasg

00:59:08 organizations weren't invited to hasg meetings but but the question is what efforts if any had been made to engage community groups in a coordinated response

00:59:16 response in the two days yes

00:59:20 um i i know uh council elected members had gone out um i don't know how anyone else had gone out to talk to him and i know um people have gone to some of the rest centers but i don't know the what

00:59:32 rest centers but i don't know the what they've done in terms of we know that the terms of reference for the hasg which we looked at before included initiating consultation with communities and individuals to ensure the response is effective did you think

00:59:44 the response is effective did you think at the time that more could and should have been done to engage with communities well in terms of me and the hsg that was that the plan was going forward and it was as it happened in

00:59:55 forward and it was as it happened in terms of the next few weeks to really engage with the communities to make this whatever happened in the future something that they wanted but that wasn't what i was doing at that time right

01:00:06 right no but you could observe what was happening and did you observe at the time that despite the terms of reference including this obligation more could have could have and should have been done

01:00:18 i'm going i don't know whether i'm being pedantic but in terms of the hasg that that wasn't set up for two days but the day after was it so it should have been set up the day before and someone should have done something about that absolutely but i also think before that

01:00:30 absolutely but i also think before that the hasg is supposed to do that in terms of the ongoing uh involvement and inclusion of people to make it really meaningful for them there should have been something much more happening on the first morning the first afternoon

01:00:41 the first morning the first afternoon the first day to talk to volunteer sector anyway and then looking a little bit lower down the screen under the heading the specific request from residents it says council should proactively contact

01:00:52 council should proactively contact clement james center representatives to know pm requested the council leader to make contact with all mosques churches and temples by end of day friday when she spoke to him on friday evening this doesn't appear to have been done

01:01:07 were you aware of this request by the prime minister before you received this email no well you were do you know whether any contact had been made before this i don't know

01:01:18 i don't know and on being told of this as you can see you were indirectly uh by uh well directly by lorna gratton if you go back to page one did you

01:01:29 if you go back to page one did you contact nicholas holgate about it or about any of the concerns in it no this is a as you can see this is a huge list what i did then because i was not um leading the even the humanitarian so i

01:01:40 leading the even the humanitarian so i sent this huge list to um

01:01:43 to um westminster um who were dealing with it for them and that beck were then going to coordinate every single aspect with people to get done i was in a specific team looking at certain things from then on

01:01:55 things from then on this is to me because i was the representative of the meeting so i had to pass it on to the people to to do those things right looking at the top of the email string then following up on that answer um you

01:02:08 forward the email you got from lorna gratton

01:02:11 gratton to robin campbell and julia corkey both at wcc

01:02:16 at wcc but not to anybody at rbkc do you think you also sent it to rbkc at that time um i had been i was sending everything to them that all

01:02:27 everything to them that all communications or things like this were going to the westminster comms i see is that why you we have no record i think of you sending this to nicholas holgate

01:02:39 holgate no i just sent it straight to as westminster comms who then dealt with everything right

01:02:48 once london local authority gold led the response as they did from the 16th

01:02:54 16th um did you notice any difference or improvement in the level of community engagement

01:03:03 um i know there was a specific group set up uh community engagement group um and there were conversations about community meetings but i wasn't involved

01:03:15 community meetings but i wasn't involved in them but i know things were being discussed and taken forward right were there any problems with community engagement after la lleg started to lead the response

01:03:26 started to lead the response i think there was still problems with community engagement right what sort of problems um just in terms of really knowing uh going out and speaking to people i know some chief executives went out i know and

01:03:38 out i know and i wasn't involved in it but i know people went out can we go to rbk 302

01:03:48 this is an email if we go to the foot of page one

01:03:51 page one from you

01:03:53 from you on the 20th of june 2017 to carolyn downs at brent and copy to andrew meek at haringey and emma sprague at the red cross subject re-urgent support for premiere

01:04:05 subject re-urgent support for premiere in hammersmith now the timing is six days after the fire and four days after london gold took over the response and

01:04:16 and if you look at the first paragraph you say carolyn the community engagement has been missing from everything and we've been saying that from the start saying that from the start and yes everything in the support strat has got to be about

01:04:28 in the support strat has got to be about what the community want and recognizing what the community are already doing i've been wanting from the start to have these conversations in the round but we're continuing to have separate work streams that are rushing off briefly

01:04:39 streams that are rushing off briefly separate briefing separately and we now need to get some coordination and principles about the community i know why but we have the chance as we move on now to bring some structure some project

01:04:51 now to bring some structure some project management and some thinking to our work and put the person and the community at the heart

01:04:57 the heart we can't do this from a bunker in westminster i know you know that but it would be good to have a conversation with someone and with us that is more than five minutes long and

01:05:08 that is more than five minutes long and when we listen to each other without rushing to a solution to the wrong question

01:05:13 question not a criticism just a plea i have cece and emma from red x as we have had this conversation a lot let me know if you wanted to join you will see you sometime tomorrow to talk maybe after soon

01:05:28 now when you say there we've been saying this from the start if you go back to the first page of this email run what did you mean

01:05:40 i'm just remembering this um everyone um was in a

01:05:48 was in a working separately so when we went to westminster um

01:05:53 um it was as i said at the beginning it was very strict it was very tactical it was very command and control and

01:06:01 and and that was needed initially and so i was in a group looking at i forget what it was looking at humanitarian response some of it and in another room and another group

01:06:12 and in another room and another group there were a group of people looking at community engagement separately strategically and i didn't think how we could actually you know we couldn't really effectively

01:06:24 effectively do humanitarian responses that would meet people's needs if we didn't have if we weren't engaged in listening to the community and understanding and so even those requests for instance tiny lots of requests about key workers what does

01:06:36 requests about key workers what does someone help need we couldn't do that without actually talking to people and i've been in a room by that time um for a week and i just i just thought and also

01:06:48 and i just i just thought and also the way i i do understand um these structures but at some point you actually do need to stop and have a conversation about a bit to develop a theme rather than running people were

01:06:59 theme rather than running people were running with responses that's how we were doing things and as a consequence we were missing key aspects of how you could really talk to communities about what would work for them better

01:07:13 did you feel at this point 20th of june 2017 that within the london gold-led response coordination about how to engage

01:07:22 to engage and work with the community was lacking uh i don't know it was lacking i just didn't know whether it was um i didn't know much about it and it wasn't being fed into the work stream i

01:07:34 wasn't being fed into the work stream i was doing so therefore it was seen as a very separate um we've got to engage sort of um i don't mean politically i mean with a small p we've got to engage with groups uh on a

01:07:45 uh on a just talking to groups get groups together what i was talking about here was really listening to people and understanding what was happening and spending more time it was a bit more different and no one was doing that in

01:07:56 different and no one was doing that in my view

01:07:57 my view and your role at this point was was what exactly is you understood it i can't remember the exact role i was in them a team that was um looking at um so anything that came from um i think

01:08:09 um so anything that came from um i think caroline downs must have been the halo at that time so i was in a room with several people anything that came to her come to us like for instance um when when number 10 said everyone needed

01:08:20 when when number 10 said everyone needed a key worker i was in a room and i had to arrange a meeting to get key workers i then had to do a briefing the key workers i then had to do we were just responding to actions uh individually and

01:08:33 uh individually and constantly so that's why i was saying can we have a pause and just com just take stock now was that a week later i don't know just take stock now um just really not in this structure of gold but but to talk

01:08:46 this structure of gold but but to talk properly about what we can do that's what i was asking for there yes i just want to ask you one or two questions about social workers in relation to those affected by the fire who already had a social worker would it

01:08:57 who already had a social worker would it follow that they would still have had support from their pre-existing social worker throughout this disaster yes yes now we've heard a number of references to these to to the term key workers

01:09:09 to these to to the term key workers um

01:09:11 um was that just help was that something that the government had declared should be given

01:09:16 be given to victims everybody should have a key worker that was my understanding right uh and i think it's right isn't it that all key workers as such had to be social workers

01:09:27 workers that was what was instructed yet right i see

01:09:30 see so only a social worker could be a key worker as designated at that time did that change um i don't know whether it changed but i'm just saying that was the instruction whether or not you needed social media

01:09:41 whether or not you needed social media that's another point no i think it's right that is this right correct me if this is wrong but the allocated case worker

01:09:47 worker would offer a wide range of practical and emotional support and if necessary access to specialist services that was the um brief that was the brief did it was the brief followed through

01:09:59 did it was the brief followed through well um

01:10:02 well um i think i don't know whether it was was it the saturday or the sunday we asked for key workers um well it was declared on this the friday the 16th of june right well we probably had a meeting on the saturday with all

01:10:13 had a meeting on the saturday with all directors across london and we asked for them to give to give us names of social workers

01:10:19 workers between that and then sunday in that room with some people we then had to say what the key worker might be do it might be able to do um

01:10:28 um again

01:10:29 again in my view this was just a very very quick

01:10:33 quick response people did need to be spoken to by people people didn't need help but it could have been the housing where i could already support him so we had a whole lot of people who were offering their support

01:10:44 people who were offering their support who came from outside i mean it doesn't matter where they came from but um they were coming and we didn't have a load of structure in place we didn't have a place where they could go we didn't have someone to manage them we didn't have so it was

01:10:55 manage them we didn't have so it was beginning so it was it was a process at a time it sounds as if the process at its initiation caused quite a few problems is that fair well it needed a lot of work right

01:11:09 well it needed a lot of work right now

01:11:09 now there is some evidence we've had from those who had key workers that some key workers were helpful and supportive whereas others were not was there a lack of clarity about the nature and scope of the key worker role

01:11:23 i think at first there was um because again because there wasn't the management in place there wasn't a place they could go we haven't got a whole lot of um

01:11:34 we haven't got a whole lot of um over the days and the weeks that followed there was a lot of information for them a lot but some key work some social workers some

01:11:42 some people just wanted to go and say hello to people are you okay um

01:11:46 um they didn't know they had to do all these other things and some people didn't need them but those some people might have needed them and those social workers would come from a totally different council hadn't been briefed properly by then i think things like

01:11:57 properly by then i think things like that were happening it was all very very quick

01:11:59 quick there may have been a different way of doing it

01:12:02 doing it right

01:12:03 right mr chairman is now a convenient moment we're going to stick with social workers for a bit but um it's probably a convenient moment well if that suits you yes we can have a break at that point well it sounds like it's a good time to

01:12:14 well it sounds like it's a good time to take the afternoon break ms friends and so we'll break there we'll return the toughbook three please and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room all right thank you very much

01:12:35 thank you very much mr millet half of three then please

01:30:29 would you ask this redmond to come back in please okay

01:30:42 right servant yes thank you yes mr millet yes thank you mr chairman could we turn please to clg405594

01:31:09 this is an email from steve mulrooney dated the 19th of june 2017 center 1427. now you're not a recipient of it but i just want to ask you something about it

01:31:20 just want to ask you something about it steve mulrooney is in housing strategy at mhclg or was at the time and he says here katie as of 1400

01:31:31 and he says here katie as of 1400 that's on the 19th of june uh 65 key workers have been allocated a further 25 to 30 tbc social workers are currently at a briefing on the key worker role for the incident this means

01:31:43 worker role for the incident this means they are approaching the key figure of 96 key workers for cat ones uh could you just help what were cat ones or the key figure of 96 key workers for cat ones

01:31:56 i i don't know you don't know you can't help with that

01:32:01 but did it was it the case that on monday the 19th of june 2017 there were cat one families that had not been allocated a key worker

01:32:13 that had not been allocated a key worker i see um it was it was i think it was a categorization of people whether they'd been buried survived or um i think that was what categories were um i i'm sure i don't know these figures

01:32:24 um i i'm sure i don't know these figures he must have got these figures from um the center i was working in i don't know um

01:32:30 um well i don't recognize the figures but i do know that um that this was the day after we'd asked all the we'd asked for people and not everyone had a key worker straight away

01:32:41 key worker straight away now if you look on further it says uh

01:32:48 third paragraph down key worker allocation is waiting for and bound by process of the family liaison officers flows being allocated to families once flow is allocated they are referring through to the key worker

01:32:59 referring through to the key worker coordinator who is that allocating key workers

01:33:02 workers did the process where a family liaison officer had to be allocated for those residents who were bereaved place an additional delay in the allocation of a key worker

01:33:13 key worker well it possibly did but um it sounds like um these key workers were individual social workers from every other council and um

01:33:22 and um i think when we say allocated i think they were given a name of someone who was on the list and they were they were given their allocation and they said this is the person you need to go and

01:33:34 this is the person you need to go and see here's a bit of a briefing and they might have gone we didn't have i don't think there were family lays in office for everybody and i think

01:33:42 i think the protocol was that those families that brewed needed a family liaison officer before they had um a key worker yes so exactly so if you didn't have a pre-existing social worker is it right

01:33:55 pre-existing social worker is it right that you couldn't get a key worker who was a social worker until then a lesson until you had a an flo allocated to you yeah from the police from the police yes yeah yes

01:34:08 from the police yes yeah yes now uh you if you go to rbk three zeroes two two eight two two two eight four five rbk three zeroes two two eight four five

01:34:17 five this is an email to you uh on the 21st of june 2017 that's the wednesday now a week on

01:34:28 that's the wednesday now a week on and it comes from natasha bishop at the top of the email run and she is in

01:34:35 in family services at rbkc and this comes to you and she says hi sue

01:34:42 sue to confirm 106 tower and walk residents allocated two-thirds of these have been made contact with we will confirm exact numbers on those who have actually been seen in person later today

01:34:53 seen in person later today a further 10 people were identified as needing allocating via the operation dwp stroke post office theresa may monies these will be allocated today those are neighboring

01:35:04 allocated today those are neighboring streets that were displaced at present number 23 and these are being allocated further residents in this category being identified so expect this number to rise during the day we'll update you later today

01:35:15 today does it follow or can we take from this document that as of the 21st of june 2017 seven days after the fire of 106 residents of grenfell tower and the

01:35:28 106 residents of grenfell tower and the walkways two-thirds had been contacted but it appeared unknown how many of those were contacted face-to-face

01:35:36 uh yes because this is we had to get reports regularly every twice a day from the people who were coordinating the key workers so that would have been her report yes i see do you know why the remaining third had still not been

01:35:48 remaining third had still not been contacted

01:35:50 contacted uh yes it's because

01:35:54 uh trying it might not have been the best process to say everyone will have a key worker within two days it might not have been possible to do exactly what people thought would be happening originally it was just people in the

01:36:05 originally it was just people in the tower and then it was everyone who was affected so the list got longer and the key workers were coming from everywhere and um

01:36:13 and um it was very hard to um to to get many very quickly in there who could actually do something real right

01:36:21 right was there a process whereby people wouldn't be allocated a key worker until everybody in the tower had one um i don't know whether i was a former person but we actually said people in the tower maybe they may be in the

01:36:32 the tower maybe they may be in the category one ones i'm not quite sure but i think that would make sense right

01:36:37 right and why were those

01:36:40 those who had been displaced in neighboring areas but still needing support why did they have to await the allocation of a key worker um originally um this might not be the process that

01:36:51 this might not be the process that anyone would have advocated to do this work by the way i just need to put that down um originally um we actually went out to ask for x number of social workers to cover the families that were

01:37:03 workers to cover the families that were affected in the tower that's why

01:37:06 said but then lots of people came forward who were affected who had relatives and so more and more people needed support whether and not everyone i mean needed a an allocation with key

01:37:18 i mean needed a an allocation with key worker or not but then the numbers got bigger and so we had to look at other social workers and we had to start saying who needed them first and it was those people who were affected mostly first there had to be some sort of

01:37:29 first there had to be some sort of categorization in some ways which came from gold

01:37:33 from gold once key workers were allocated to families

01:37:36 families can you tell us how long it took in general for face-to-face contact to take place with the relevant families or person

01:37:44 person um

01:37:45 um i forget in terms of the briefing because of course this is being done the briefings are being done on very quickly and protocols are being drawn up very quickly um and i think the

01:37:57 um and i think the the um

01:37:58 the um the process was please get in touch with your person straight away by phone or face to face in retrospect um and some people didn't want to see uh they actually didn't want

01:38:10 want to see uh they actually didn't want to see a key work at that stage some people were seeing housing workers so they didn't know what a key worker was and some people weren't at the addresses that they

01:38:18 that they that the key worker had there was lots of operational reasons why some people might not have seen face to face in that day

01:38:26 day let's go to rbk three zeros one five two three

01:38:29 three one five two four three

01:38:34 this is a an email from uh mona hyatt

01:38:40 on thursday june the 22nd 2017. so we're outside the seven day period after the fire but it looks back uh and the subject

01:38:51 uh and the subject is

01:38:52 is as you can see uh

01:38:57 um for third entry down suicidal ideation amongst glenfeld residents did debbie tim and natasha that's natasha bopp bishop rather

01:39:08 natasha bopp bishop rather and

01:39:11 uh if you

01:39:23 look down please at excuse me

01:39:27 excuse me page

01:39:28 page two of this document you can see that it follows on from an email the previous day

01:39:33 day on the 21st of june from mona hyatt same title dear craig a situation happened at the west west site this afternoon a patient was restrained until

01:39:44 afternoon a patient was restrained until 999 service arrived our community champions are reporting patients who are threatening to kill themselves and there are reports of suicide attempts the disquiet is due to people calling the helplines or speaking to social workers

01:39:55 helplines or speaking to social workers who are arranging appointments for a week's time i completely appreciate the real stretch on services at the moment however it's apparent people need to be seen a lot sooner i'm aware that this is building

01:40:07 sooner i'm aware that this is building with within the local community and i think it would be helpful for us to support you by distributing comms amongst community leaders that provide some assurance that people will be given appointments as a matter of urgency

01:40:19 matter of urgency and she signs herself art off mona hyatt director of programs nhs west london clinical commissioning group um was this problem averted to here by

01:40:30 um was this problem averted to here by mona hyatt something you were aware of at the time and i say at the time on or around the 21st of june 2017. i can't remember this um example but i do know not everyone was

01:40:42 example but i do know not everyone was getting um a key worker ringing them right and let's go then on to rbk rbk3016140

01:40:53 this is an email from rbkc rachel dalton on the 23rd of june 2017 to the back copied to

01:41:02 copied to rbkc housing staff regarding feedback from residents who had been placed at the holiday inn in kensington and in the fourth paragraph down on your screen she says this um and this is

01:41:15 um and this is about um jenny who had been coordinating the holiday in kensington forum uh she says she has advised that residents have reported and are angry that they have yet to see

01:41:26 and are angry that they have yet to see anyone at all from the council despite my understanding that all grenfell residents had been allocated at sw social worker and completed suitability assessments perhaps these are households from the cordoned area query she stated

01:41:39 from the cordoned area query she stated that because the staff that have been drafted in from elsewhere the impression is that residents feel they've been abandoned by our bkc despite them being present since last wednesday at the rest centers and making contact with clients etc

01:41:52 contact with clients etc it is our observations observations that the majority of residents have been satisfied with the response and assistance of rbkc but that a number of volunteers about whom safeguarding concerns were raised this week were

01:42:04 concerns were raised this week were present at the hotel and antagonizing stroke escalating the feeling of residence calling the media and calling lawyers etc um first were you aware that residents

01:42:15 um first were you aware that residents felt abandoned by rbkc by virtue of the fact that they were having to deal with workers from outside the borough i'm sure people might have done yet did was that a problem that was brought to your attention at the time um

01:42:26 your attention at the time um it might have been but um

01:42:30 theresa may had said i don't know how to have a key worker and there weren't enough key work i know key work had to be a social worker my view was i don't think they needed to be a social worker and they could have been anyone from rbkc who had empathy and could

01:42:42 rbkc who had empathy and could understand and talk to people had that happened or westminster or harrisburg and fulham they would have had local people who would have seen them and they would have been coordinated better that is my impression this was because lots

01:42:54 is my impression this was because lots of people were coming from different places they were just visiting from outside and they didn't know the area and people didn't feel they were from rbkc and they weren't right

01:43:04 right right um looking at the officers observations in the last paragraph that a number of volunteers had been attending the holiday in kensington and antagonizing or escalating the feeling of residence etc

01:43:16 escalating the feeling of residence etc was that something you were aware of at the time or knew anything about uh yes that had come through the group the team i was in in terms of safeguarding concerns about it some people who were trying to

01:43:28 some people who were trying to um

01:43:31 trying to yeah not quite escalate but um they had different views of whether whether those a resident should speak to a key worker at all don't speak to them there was some people were saying that that's what some reports we got right

01:43:45 where were those volunteers from were they from organizations were they just people who had whatever i think they were individuals right i see

01:43:54 now i want to ask you about walkway residents do you remember what was london local authority gold's process for allocating key workers to the families of the walkways by which i

01:44:05 the families of the walkways by which i mean the buildings um within the grenfell uh area but we're not the tower i can't remember in detail but i do know there were conversations it might have been that's when the numbers of people

01:44:17 been that's when the numbers of people who needed key workers increased i can't remember in detail where families from the walkways prioritized in the same way that grenville tower residents were i think originally and in all these

01:44:28 i think originally and in all these things there was a categorization of who people might have had to have key workers and then the first incident it was those in the tower it wasn't meaning they wouldn't other people wouldn't get support or help but in terms of the key worker specifically yes and when did

01:44:40 worker specifically yes and when did that change so that everybody was treated equally um or was the did it i can't even remember um a whether it did change but i do know more people got allocated key workers and i can't

01:44:51 allocated key workers and i can't remember right then let's go back to uh gol401742

01:45:00 say back i think this is the first time we've seen this document this is a minute or a a note perhaps of the hac

01:45:07 the hac subgroup community assistance center and helpline subgroup andrew meek beverly tarka

01:45:14 tarka and we know that it's dated the 19th of june

01:45:18 june um if we go to page two penultimate entry we can see there that

01:45:25 that um

01:45:30 beverly tarka who was haringey i think uh and gold command key worker subgroup leader she suggests here to andrew meek that she heads up core you see that and sue

01:45:44 she heads up core you see that and sue core tower and sue to look at the support for other locally affected were there separate work streams for grenfell tower residents and the walkway residents

01:45:56 um no um not separate work streams but in terms of

01:46:03 terms of um humanitarian assistance there are categories of people who might be affected it's in the framework i think and those people who are um survivors or bereaved immediate or involved

01:46:15 bereaved immediate or involved immediately they are there's a categorization then people are affected because they were in locally or they saw there's there is a categorization in terms of responses

01:46:28 did that lead did that categorization lead to different provisions of support for grenfell tower residents and the walkway residents respectively in relation to this i can't remember

01:46:41 in relation to this i can't remember i think this is why we had to get a lot more key workers because there were a lot more people who needed support and

01:46:47 and they might not have all wanted key workers but because um there was a decree that everyone would have a key worker everyone who was effective wanted one absolutely if they want if they wanted one they they should have had one and i think that's why we had to get

01:46:58 and i think that's why we had to get more key workers and i can't remember the work stream from here right and let's see if we can pick this up earlier on in this note if we go to the foot of page one please you see there underneath the

01:47:10 you see there underneath the um the phrase identified five strands uh and then it says in the second bullet point for those different cohorts what's the level of support we are providing stroke offer to

01:47:22 support we are providing stroke offer to them

01:47:24 is that a reference to different levels of support being given to different different

01:47:31 different groups of people depending on whether they were in the tower or from the walkways

01:47:35 walkways yes and i think this is absolutely part of a framework right a national framework that do that and if you look back at page two again you can see

01:47:46 uh under the red reference to nick pendry clinical lead it says government offer is only for people in the tower 96 families 86 from grenfell tower and 10 from grenfell walk

01:47:59 grenfell tower and 10 from grenfell walk what was that about you know

01:48:04 you know i think that's saying that that's all that um

01:48:07 that um maybe they meant at the time when people should have key workers was it the case that there was a lack of available key workers which left certain displaced residents without one i'm sure

01:48:17 i'm sure that we did have lots of key workers uh i'm sure some people are they didn't see them because they they didn't do or they they didn't deliver what they wanted sorry i'm not quite sure how many didn't

01:48:29 sorry i'm not quite sure how many didn't actually have one allocated in in this cohort right and who was in charge of the allocation system

01:48:39 um there was a group which beverly and myself and a few people sat on in in westminster i guess it was it was the halo at the time but we managed the group that were getting um

01:48:51 group that were getting um the allocations the the system together um and then we set up i think it wasn't natasha bishop's name was mentioned she was a social worker leader who was then managing um how they

01:49:02 leader who was then managing um how they they were operated and what happened to them but beverly and i and a few other people there were actually getting their names and

01:49:08 names and some other people allocating them to to people who needed them were you liaising with housing housing

01:49:15 housing yes we were i definitely we definitely felt because some people already in terms of allocating key workers to people who already had a housing person supporting them there was a question well should we do that they're already

01:49:26 well should we do that they're already seeing housing people they're providing support they've got to know them but they we had to give them a key worker as well that's right i see

01:49:35 i see um

01:49:37 um during your time working on the response first as halo then after the pan london response was activated did you have any experience of support being provided from central government

01:49:52 um i don't think i did right

01:49:56 right now we've had your the benefit of your comments

01:49:59 comments uh on opinions on the london excuse me and your comments and opinions on the london gold activation and a number of specific elements of the response

01:50:08 response i just want to ask you about uh the adequacy of that response um and the feedback um if we go to rbk3044673

01:50:21 um what i'm showing you is

01:50:28 an uh a document entitled adult social care staff debrief sessions feedback report this was produced by jeff sherlock on

01:50:39 this was produced by jeff sherlock on the 14th of july 2017.

01:50:44 um have you or did you see this document at the time um i think i did because we asked someone to come in and talk to our we wanted a debrief so we got someone independent in to do it in adult social care was just doing it right

01:50:56 care was just doing it right did you have any input into this document i know he was just asking all the stuff um i was i wasn't um i don't think i was asked i don't think so i can't remember okay let's see if this prompts a

01:51:07 okay let's see if this prompts a recollection can we go to page two please and look at the second bullet bullet point down on page two coordination i'll show it to you it says coordination between police voluntary agencies etc

01:51:19 between police voluntary agencies etc were said to be poor and the flow of information and understanding of each other's roles was felt to be fragmented one group described how they had been managing the westway center when a group from a different borough arrived and

01:51:30 from a different borough arrived and took over quotes on quotes making it clear that they were now quite in charge on quotes a consistent comment was that the lack of coordination led to people having to repeat their information several times

01:51:42 several times uh now what i've read to you there was was

01:51:45 was with these observations that you shared you agreed with well these were observations of the people on the ground i understand what they mean by one they were taken over i

01:51:57 they mean by one they were taken over i understand what happened there but they might not have been aware of what was happening there right and obviously the coordination wasn't good we've discussed that most of the day

01:52:06 day can we go to page three then and look at the third paragraph

01:52:12 that's emergency contingency plans there next to the bullet point and it says emergency contingency plans and the lack of them was raised by all

01:52:23 and the lack of them was raised by all groups spoken to it was generally felt there was no clear plan in place which led to much of the confusion and lack of coordination this is particularly referred to as being the major issue in the initial stages it was however the

01:52:35 the initial stages it was however the view that as time passed this improved and there now seemed to be more consistency

01:52:42 was it the case that there were plans but very limited knowledge of their existence among the staff who were meant to apply them from what you observed

01:52:53 yes um i i subbingly know that some of the plans weren't complete but yes there were plans and immediately underneath that it says the key worker role was the subject of a great deal of discussion and the lack of

01:53:05 great deal of discussion and the lack of clarity of the purpose of the role was a major topic people felt that the expectations placed on them were unrealistic in that they were expected to deal with everything and find a solution to every issue raised

01:53:16 solution to every issue raised is is that that an observation with which you would agree it is yes

01:53:24 yes thank you very much well um mr edmund um i should tell you i've come to the end of my prepared questions um i'm going to ask the chairman to do what we normally do which is to take a

01:53:35 what we normally do which is to take a short pause at this stage to see whether there's anything i've ever looked or other questions that others would wish me to ask

01:53:41 me to ask and so if we can take the normal break that we normally do now that would be very helpful yes thank you mr miller well as you probably know ms redmond at this stage of the proceedings we have a short break to

01:53:53 a short break to enable mr millet to check that he's not left anything out and also to allow others who are following the proceedings from elsewhere to suggest questions that perhaps we ought to have asked you

01:54:04 ought to have asked you so we'll stop now do you think 10 minutes is long enough just a minute uh

01:54:11 i'm just looking at my emails uh normally yes i think so i think ten minutes and if if i need longer i can come off yes i think we'll say five past four

01:54:20 four um

01:54:21 um and if he goes a bit longer well someone can tell you and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while they're out of the room all right thank you very much

01:54:37 when we say five past four mr minute if you need longer just ask the ashley to go and tell us thank you thank you

02:04:58 thank you yes could you ask mr edmund to come back

02:05:11 right thread well we'll see if there are any more questions for you all right thank you yes yes mr chairman just one or two first could you please be shown gol

02:05:19 gol four zeros one seven four two again please

02:05:30 now we looked at this before this is the the note of an h a c subgroup community assistance center helpline subgroup and if you look at the five strands at

02:05:41 and if you look at the five strands at the foot of page one and go over to the top of page two

02:05:48 uh you can see the third bullet point done refers to an equality's impact assessment and it says equality's impact assessment needs to be done on this but not desperately urgent do you recall whether that was ever done

02:05:59 do you recall whether that was ever done whether an equality's impact assessment was ever done

02:06:05 i can't i can't remember right

02:06:13 do you know well do you remember from what you saw whether those involved in the humanitarian side of the response to the grenfell tower fire were consciously

02:06:24 grenfell tower fire were consciously aware of

02:06:26 aware of from what they said or what they did as far as you could tell of the obligations of rbkc under the public sector equality duty under the equality act

02:06:38 i i'm finding that difficult to answer i just i know that um people expressed issues around interpreters and food and

02:06:47 food and times of

02:06:48 times of prayers and um opportunities for people um for that so they were taking those things into account in some of the responses yes yeah yes go reformulate my question slightly more pointedly perhaps was

02:06:59 slightly more pointedly perhaps was there any discussion at the time about the discharge of that duty from what you saw

02:07:06 no no no um

02:07:10 no um we talked about key workers and allocation uh

02:07:16 uh where key workers were allocated to families with children

02:07:22 did those key workers have ready access to the ccs children's services

02:07:34 my recollection was in the main rbkc children's services tried to to be the key workers for those families with children so most of them hopefully did have

02:07:45 of them hopefully did have local rbkc social workers right

02:07:49 right were you aware of any instances where key workers were allocated to families who did not have ready access to child support services

02:07:59 i'm not aware individually there may have been

02:08:03 have been right

02:08:07 now finally mr edmund is there anything um else that you'd like to add to your evidence by way of observations or anything you'd like to say in addition to what you told us today

02:08:19 well i suppose the thing for me is just about lessons learned and i know you've got hundreds of lessons that are learned but um

02:08:26 but um in councils one of the main things you hear and i've been to lots of councils in senior levels and it's always said um children and adult services are the most important because that's people and people can need support and can die i

02:08:39 people can need support and can die i know after this experience i just think the status and the awareness of emergency planning system in councils is not as it should be and it needs to be absolutely up

02:08:51 be and it needs to be absolutely up there they need to be inspected they need to be uh a person who's really accountable as a senior i've really seen and the corporate team have to get training that i've never experienced training that you

02:09:02 i've never experienced training that you needed to to do anything like this i think that needs to be changed totally i think if you're going to always have the director of adult social care as a halo they need to be trained specifically and what that is in the breadth of it rather

02:09:14 what that is in the breadth of it rather than just um and i i would question why you need that person to do it um

02:09:21 um i think girls should go in immediately i i don't when whatever you mean by gold i think experts should go in immediately something happens and not sit there and wait

02:09:30 wait and support a council from the start

02:09:34 thank you very much well mr edmund it only remains for me to thank you very much for coming here today to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you that's all i have for

02:09:45 grateful to you that's all i have for you so thank you very much thank you mr evan is right that i should add my thanks on behalf of all of us on the panel uh to you for coming along today to give your evidence it's been very interesting to hear what you have to tell us and

02:09:57 to hear what you have to tell us and very helpful so we're grateful to you for coming and now you're free to go thank you thank you very much

02:10:13 well mr millet that i think must be it for today but we have another witness tomorrow we have another witness tomorrow laura johnson with whom i think you'll be familiar and mr keating is going to reduce her evidence good thank

02:10:24 going to reduce her evidence good thank you very much well then we'll break at that point and we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning thank you thank you very much